As artists, we’re no stranger to change. We find ourselves changing mediums, markets, our financial and time budgets, our relationships, and all kinds of aspects of life outside the studio and it all has an affect on what we do for our art and how we live as creatives.
My guest today has been through a lot of change in his creative life, making that the core of this conversation. How do you deal with change? How do we plan for and work with change that steers our creative journey in unexpected directions? Although we don’t have all the answers, this conversation aims to dip your toes into the concepts along with taking you on side trips that include things like talking about your work with strangers, inviting people into your studio when it gets lonely, and playing practical jokes on friends and family with cricket flour. No that’s not a misspelling and, yes, we’re talking actual jumping cricket creatures.
And, of course, we get to know Joseph Barbaccia, an artist illustrator with a unique style and fascinating approach that is not unlike translating paint strokes into clay strokes. Come join Joe and I as we meander through these subjects and more on The Sage Arts podcast.
Contact my guest:
www.facebook.com/joseph.barbaccia
www.instagram.com/josephbarbaccia/
www.youtube.com/@JosephBarbaccia
Barbaccia Books… https://www.amazon.com/stores/Joseph-Barbaccia/author/B08NFGGPYK
Solo show: https://www.rehobothartleague.org/exhibitions/upcoming/delaware-days/
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Other Resources mentioned:
Last Light by Richard Lacayo www.simonandschuster.com/books/Last-Light/Richard-Lacayo/9781501146589
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CONTACT SAGE
Email Sage via the contact form or send a voice mail (use the red button, bottom right) on the show website: https://thesagearts.com/contact/
And join Sage on social media:
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Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheSageArtsPodcast
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CREDITS:
Cover design by Sage; Illustration by Olga Kostenko
Music by Playsound
Cover image by Joseph Barbaccia
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Transcript
Joseph B: I would tell that to anybody who’s stuck at any age, even if they’re not stuck and take a look around you. Have an idea? You want to express. It is what you’re doing now. Is that the best way to express that idea that you have?
Sage: Hello all my lovely. Creative chameleons out there. Thank you for joining me today on the Sage Arts Podcast. I’m sage your host for this really fun conversation today. I’m going to skip my usual preamble, since you’ll, strangely enough, here plenty of me in the interview because my guest got a little trixie with me towards the end, which is kind of apropos for the conversation, but you’ll see. Talking about so we’ll dispense with the drinks commentary and the weather, which has been pretty indecisive anyways today and all that other nonsense, but you can still come in metaphorically to listen in on the conversation. I’m in my podcast studio Slash Closet, just over the mountains from Malibu in Southern California, and my guess is on the complete. Other opposite corner of the country on the northeastern coast, so you can fill the spaces in between or to the side or whatever, and just enjoy a little audio voyeurism on this conversation. Today I don’t want to skip the shout out though. This week I got so many comments on the perfection episode it seemed to really strike a deep or maybe a big chord for a lot of people. I was even getting like third hand comments from some animation people. My husband talked to who were apparently listening so. To all of you, thank you so much for listening and for giving Brett the feedback, which of course works its way back to me and I appreciate all the input. Also a shout out to Linda Brooks who sent me a number of comments, admits this story. Give hers. She did admit that she has a kind of arrogance as the word she used, and I think we all do this there sometimes where we think we’ve just heard it all. We know everything, especially when it comes to art and creativity, but on the perfectionism episode, she just thought it hit so many insightful. For her, and I think that’s a great thing to be reminded of that, although we feel like we may know it all, there is always more to learn and if not learn necessarily to be reminded of or to see things with a kind of new twist. On it that allows us. To see things in a new and inspiring. Right. And so here’s her story. Basically, she used to be. Super obsessive about getting everything perfect and in her jewelry art, she would Polish the backs and the edges to a ridiculous degree. Not only was it taking a lot of time and hurting her hands in her back, she wasn’t having fun. And it wasn’t perfect. It ended up in her personal stash. Which means she has a very large personal collection, because if it wasn’t an absolutely perfect, it wasn’t going to go out and be sold so. What worked for? Was she started looking at the artisan jewelry of other makers at craft events and whatnot when she looked at. Get up close.
Sage: And see whether the so-called imperfections were anything that she cared about and she realized that the little minor Dings or whatever wouldn’t take away from the aesthetics or the comfort of the piece. And it certainly didn’t stop her from spending the money. So that was a real aha moment for her, and she was able to then place herself in a customer. Mindset when she was selling her own. And work. She was also looking to friends and family to give them feedback on whether the things that seemed imperfect to her were things that would have kept them from buying things. So she’s definitely learning that imperfection doesn’t necessarily get in the way of the aesthetics, the function, or the comfort. And she says she’s. Learning to live with it. Well, I hope that what I had to say. Helps you learn to. So-called live with it and that it will get more and more comfortable for you. But thank you Linda. So much for the comments. I’m glad you enjoyed that and got so much insight from. That episode I also wanted. To give a thank you to Coral Stengel, who I think I shouted out before. But whenever someone makes a big contribution to my coffee budget, I have to say thank you on here. So thank you Cole, for contributing. She says she really appreciates me, which is so sweet, but no, I really appreciate you all of you. You know, but yes. I do have kind of a special place in my muses heart for the givers and the storytellers, so thank you so much, coral and Linda. I have more comments and stories that I’ll try to work in next week, so if you didn’t hear yours or I haven’t been able to answer your emails or comments yet, I’ll try to find time and space for you in the podcast. Regardless, I will write. You all back. It’s just been a. Super full week. For me, if you have a story, a comment, an observation or whatever, or you want to give back a go to the website. The sagearts.com you can head to the contact page to see. You can stay on the home page if you’re able to give back. Just Scroll down to the buy me coffee or PayPal donation buttons or use the links to go buy stickers or publications. All of that helps keep me going and do hit the follow button. If you’re listening on a podcast player so you know when new episodes are live at, I know who’s all listening. You can also sign up for the newsletter. I send it out. On Sunday mornings, like 3:00 AM my time. Not that I’m up sending it out. I have a scheduler that sends it out. But it’s like. When you’re waking up on the East Coast or it’s probably lunch time in Europe or around dinner time or after dinner time in Australia. So sometime on Sunday you get this e-mail and it gives you the lowdown on the episode and the link. If you prefer to access the podcast through the browser feed hub that I have. And that’s also where I’ll include any extra materials I promise in an episode. I’ll also include extras. And that browser link in my posts on Instagram and Facebook. Both those pages can be found on those social media platforms under the Sage Arts Podcast. All one word follow and you’ll get to see also extra postings. I had to complement the present episode that I’ve put. So that all said, let’s just bracket the upcoming conversation with the thoughts that you might want to keep in mind as you listen so you can get the most out of it. We’re gonna be talking about change. The kind of changes. That we go through. As an artist, so if you have some changes that you’ve been contemplating, changes that you’re going through changes that you know are coming up due to life circumstances. Age movie. Think about what those mean to you and what those could mean for changes in your artwork. So I guess the question keep in mind is, are there changes that are coming up and have you spent the time to contemplate what that means for your artwork? And if those changes are going to affect you, how you need to plan or. Prepare for them. So without. Further ado, let’s get on to the conversation. OK. My guest today is Joseph Barbaccia. He is an artist illustrator who works primarily in polymer clay these days. So thank you so much for. Joining me, Joseph.
Joseph B: Say it’s it’s. It’s really a pleasure being here. A real estate opportunity to talk with you and to answer. Any questions you might have?
Sage: I love that you relish it. Me too. That’s great. So let’s get. A little background on you, like you and I met. You actually reached. Out to me when I was working on the Polymer Arts magazine about your new method of illustrating.
Sage: Basically you illustrate with Paul Mcclay the type of work that he does and maybe you can explain it better than maybe he uses strings of Homer. But it’s just very dramatic. There’s lots of movement and lying in there, and it’s just really, really beautiful work. And for those of you aren’t familiar with this work or want visuals to kind of go along with the conversation, I would suggest going to his website at paradisestudio.com. So that’s PARADISE studio. Dot com. So Joseph, let’s start with what you’re. Doing right now for your art.
Joseph B: Well, right now I’m preparing for a solo show at a local gallery. An organization here in Rehoboth Beach in Delaware will be about 20 pieces, and I’m just finishing up some last minute pieces, postcards and. Exhibition catalogs.
Speaker
Oh great.
Joseph B: So that’s kind of what I’m working. On right now.
Sage: And the exhibition is for your polymer illustrate.
Joseph B: Yes, it’s all Paulo Mcclay. So it’s kind of pure in that aspect.
Sage: Yeah. Yeah, it is.
Joseph B: But you know you you never know. That may change.
Sage: Right, right. And that’s we’re going. To talk about. Is how things might change and how things have changed for you. So yeah, you live in Delaware and I think you mentioned that you’re rather isolated.
Joseph B: Oh yes, I live in Sussex County in Delaware and other than Lewis and Rehoboth Beach, which are summer vacation destinations, the county is the smallest in population in Delaware and it’s very rural. There’s a lot of chicken farms. And regular farms. You know corn?
Sage: Just farming. Yeah, I like how it’s. Dallas in Delaware, considering how small Delaware got to be really tiny, did you find the isolation to be, you know, does it work well for your artwork and your concentration?
Joseph B: Yes, yes.
Speaker
It is.
Joseph B: In some ways, yes. I never really had too many problems concentrating on my work, but that’s only because I have a short attention span in general, but we can talk about that later too. There is difficulty. If I wish to. Contact galleries. There are a few galleries, but most of the galleries in the area are geared to tourists and my work isn’t necessarily geared to tourists.
Sage: Yeah, of course, yeah.
Joseph B: I’ve started to become a little more familiar with the galleries, say in Wilmington, which is, you know, the largest city in Delaware.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: And I do have some galleries that I deal. With in the Washington, DC area that I’m still in contact with, but normally when a an artist wants to see and wants to be associated with the gallery, there’s a lot of visits to openings and you know, talking with the owners or with the staff.
Sage: Great. Yeah. Right.
Joseph B: So it’s a little more difficult. It’s a 2 hour drive. For me to do something like that.
Sage: Ohh yeah, yeah, now you’re technically retired from your previous main career.
Joseph B: For the past five years.
Sage: But you’ve not retired and just gone on and. And you don’t sit around eating bonbons and watching TV or whatnot. You started another cruise.
Joseph B: There’s there’s. Times for that.
Sage: You hesitated.
Joseph B: This time there’s times for that, but normally you’re right. I continue to do my artwork. When I was working full time, that was always something in my mind that I wanted to keep on doing. It was the same with my graphics when I lived in Northern Virginia.
Sage: Right. And your in your previous profession was primarily in graphic design.
Joseph B: Graphic design and illustration it I I call it informational illustration.
Sage: Yeah, so still illustrating. Informational illustration. OK, so so it just kind of transferred a lot of that illustrative knowledge and mindset into your artwork that you do today.
Joseph B: Well, yeah, somewhat. I still use the computer to work on the pieces that I do now in clay, and I still pretty much have that 9:00 to 5:00 work ethic that I, you know, that 40 plus years of. Of nine to five will do for it.
Sage: Right. It’s hard to get away from that structure and feel like you’re being productive, right?
Joseph B: Well, I I don’t mind it as long as my health continues, I’m fine with it.
Sage: Alright, that’s great.
Joseph B: I love what I.
Sage: You’ve retired, you have your artwork that you doing now, let’s just get to know you a little better. Just a couple of silly questions and stuff like that for instance. If someone wrote. A biography about you today. What would it? Be titled?
Joseph B: Veni, vidi, vici.
Sage: It’s gonna be titled Italian. OK, that’s all.
Speaker
I got.
Joseph B: Well, it’s, it’s Latin. It pertains to Julius Caesar. It means he came, he saw, he conquered.
Speaker
Ohh yes.
Joseph B: Where I came I saw I. Come to Jeff.
Sage: I conquered and you’re still conquering, so.
Joseph B: I’m hitting it.
Sage: You’re doing it.
Joseph B: Yeah, with everything I got.
Sage: You’re doing it. That’s great. I love it. And then the planner or pantser question I always ask do you like to plan things or do you just fly by the seat of your pants or do something kind of in between?
Joseph B: I’m I’m a planner because of the type of materials I’ve used and continue to use, but as far as the images go, the initial images, there’s not much thought to them. And they are more spontaneous. If I see something along the side of the road, I’ll stop my car, take a photograph of it. That interests me. If I’m waking up in the morning and I get a visual in my head, it gets quickly sketched down. So the initial. Light bulb or the initial idea is not planned. I don’t. I don’t think to myself, I’m going to do a picture of a sunset. Or I’m going to do political comment, know about relationship of. China and the EU, or? Whatever the case may be.
Speaker
Yeah, right.
Joseph B: So I don’t say that to myself. First I have done it, but it’s very rare. So the initial it is answer and then once I have the concept then I start to say. What’s the best materials to use to bring this concept or this image to fruition? The best way I think it can be done?
Sage: Right, right.
Joseph B: And then I start the planning process.
Sage: Right. And then you plan pretty much all the way through from that point though you sketch it, you work on your initial design in your computer, if I remember correctly. And then that goes on to, I don’t know if you still did this when we talked back and I think it was 2014, you put your design. On the back of glass. Do you still use those same Pyrex glass? Sheets that you were so.
Joseph B: Yes, yes.
Sage: Excited about buying back then?
Joseph B: Except I purchased a regular kitchen sized. Oven and I. Have that in my. So I did that in order to get larger single pieces of clay to get larger images done. And so I had to buy new Pyrex glass. In larger sizes.
Sage: Right, because initially you’re working with the toaster oven that I think you said it 12 inch. By 12 inch. Those little personal sized pizzas fit in.
Joseph B: Right. And then I. Bought a larger toaster oven which allowed me, I think 14 by 16 and then I said to myself it’s it’s it.
Sage: Oh wow. Just getting silly.
Joseph B: Well, for me, there’s a high degree of difficulty in piercing the smaller pieces. If I want to make a larger image. There’s a high degree of difficulty in doing that and retaining content. Duality between the pieces that I try to integrate, so bigger is better in this case.
Sage: Right. Speaker, it’s better. And for those who who don’t work in Palmer Clay, it’s kinda like modeling clay. And then you lay it out and then you put it in an oven like a regular oven and you cure it and then it becomes a solid piece. Basically, yeah, having a big. Oven that makes sense so. So yeah, little planning, a little panting at. The beginning, so let’s. Go with the my. Actually my favorite fun question. What’s your guilty pleasure?
Joseph B: It would be pasta, especially Yoki.
Sage: No. OK. Oh, yeah, that’s her daughter’s favorite.
Joseph B: Oh yeah, I can’t do too much of it. The other guilty pleasure I have is popcorn and popcorn isn’t really bad for you.
Sage: It’s not that bad, yeah.
Joseph B: No, no, but in copious amounts you can’t get.
Sage: It’s hard just to eat a. Little popcorn isn’t.
Joseph B: Ohh you can’t do you can’t do.
Sage: It I sometimes I try to make big batches so I could snack on it through the. Week and it ends. Up being gone like that afternoon. It’s ridiculous. Yeah, I’m with you. On that one and then. Do any really weird food that you’ve eaten?
Speaker
He’s excited.
Joseph B: Crickets, I’ve eaten crickets and.
Speaker
Are they the?
Sage: Chocolate covered ones or just the fried and spiced 1?
Joseph B: No fried and and seasoned. Yes, they were good. I liked them a lot. In fact, there’s a company I think it’s called cricket. That actually makes a flower out of crickets.
Sage: Cricket flower.
Joseph B: And then. And then makes things like chips and snack foods out of the crickets. And they’re pretty. These two go ahead.
Sage: Yeah, you could get the cricket chips and. Like feed them to your friends and then tell them later, and then they’re mad at you. But it’d be kind of funny.
Joseph B: Well, that that’s exactly what I did with my daughters too. I have three daughters and I must. Admit I did that.
Sage: Like how our minds. Go right to like we’re bad.
Speaker
Let’s go back to.
Sage: The art stuff now your artistic journey started when when you were a kid, when you. Went to college.
Joseph B: You know kids always. Draw and create. I mean it’s a natural thing for for human kids to do.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: And I was in love with. My second grade teacher and he was Miss Phillips. She always encouraged the kids to draw and to paint, and since I was in love with her well, I wanted to impress her and I did a lot of it and she was such a nice person, a good teacher. She of course rewarded me with that.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: You know you’re doing a good job, Joey, and you know, keep it up. Blah, blah, blah. The more attention I got, the more I like to do it. It so happened that my parents liked what I was doing to. So and other relatives you know. All the all the positive. And so I continue to do it until I started to get positive feedback for myself. I didn’t need it for my teachers or my family. I just enjoyed doing myself. And I kept going.
Sage: That’s great that you got so much support, yeah.
Joseph B: Oh, yes. I really appreciate my family for doing that.
Sage: That’s wonderful.
Joseph B: And of course, my teachers.
Sage: So you went to college? With the mindset that you were going to get an art.
Joseph B: Yes, I was going to teach. Art that was a. More practical aspect of my thoughts at the time and I went to Tao School of Fine Art, which is part of Temple University at the time. So I attended temple for two years, ran out of money. My scholarship ran out as well. And also I had some attitude. Problems about chief? Yeah, but I mean, besides that.
Sage: And boys?
Joseph B: Yeah, Gee.
Speaker
If I want.
Joseph B: To do art, I don’t need anybody to teach me.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: I could do it myself, so I took a year off and continued to do my work. But you know, I didn’t study and then I went back to school, had a liberal arts school near the Jersey Shore. Called Stockton University, it was called Stockton State College then. And I took another year there and then felt the itch to travel. And so I left college, then started traveling around the United States.
Sage: What kind of artwork? Were you doing when you? Were in school. What was your focus? Did you have a focus?
Joseph B: Not particularly. I’d love to work with oils. Then you know traditional medium. I did some jewelry work, gold casting, silver casting. I liked printing a lot. I enjoyed sculpture as well.
Sage: Which makes sense because that’s something you ended up working on a lot later on.
Joseph B: Oh yeah.
Sage: But you traveled and did that inspire you to work in art more or in anything particular or.
Joseph B: Yeah, I still. Worked and I still carried my heart supplies with me to Maryland and to Georgia and to Texas. And then after Texas, I took that six month break from my heart. I wasn’t gonna do it anymore. Just wanted. To be there. And yeah, and experience things. I gave away everything I owned and bought a motorcycle and went out to the Texas Panhandle, El Paso.
Sage: OK.
Joseph B: And then up through the Rockies and down the California coast, it took me about two months to do that. Just backpacking and camping wherever I was, and as I was doing that as I was looking at everything in the beautiful countryside meeting people, it did occur to me, you know?
Sage: All a wonderful thing, sure.
Joseph B: My mind keeps going back to making images, although it wasn’t creating anything, it was still there. So once I landed in San Diego got a job and got settled in. I started with oil paints again and started painting.
Sage: Now you’ve been through quite a number of iterations in your. Career. Did you go? Into graphic design kind of straight off and then you did your own artwork and that’s. What kept changing? Or did you have variations in your career before you landed in graphic arts?
Joseph B: Well, I use. Graphic design and information design to pay the bills, so I’ve always done that.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: And although my major in college wasn’t in graphic design, I didn’t have those classes, and I parlayed those classes that. Working with smaller companies and so I built up my graphics portfolio as I traveled and then I lived in New Zealand for a year and a half and got some jobs with publishing companies and again kept feeding my resume. And then once I got back to the United States, I fell in love. Got married. I have 3 girls and that was, you know, part of my responsibilities was to make all that work.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: And art wasn’t going to do it. And graphics sure did.
Sage: So that became your stable income? And then you. Always did artwork on the side, but it changed a lot right? So what kind of different forms or materials did you go through in your life?
Joseph B: Oh, goodness.
Sage: Could be a long list of.
Joseph B: Just just. Yeah, it was kind of very whimsical. I mean, I’ve used things from crayons and not drawing with the crayons, but using the actual crayons to develop pointless images. I’ve used polystyrene and sequin. Together I used encaustic carved wooden images. I’ve also worked on the computer using painting applications.
Sage: Yeah, you’ve had your hands in. Like all the art jars.
Joseph B: Visually, yes, I’m. I’m not a good dancer seeing I do not professionally by any means. I I also wrote poetry and I’ve also self published 5 different books.
Sage: Oh, that’s wonderful. Were those poems or art books or?
Speaker
OK.
Joseph B: One of them is the first of a series of a trailer. Gee, that’s USA novella kind of based on my travels, but more mythological and more fantasy. And then one of them, my wife had a children’s literature class in college and she wrote. This book. Fast forward 30 years we had rediscovered. And she took it out and showed it to me. And I said I’d love to do the illustrations on this. And I used polymer clay for the illustrations.
Sage: Right. Is that book available?
Joseph B: Yeah, it’s on Amazon.
Sage: OK, we’ll we’ll get the.
Joseph B: All these books are. Available on Amazon.
Sage: Link and put in the show notes because. Yeah, some of us need to get.
Joseph B: OK. There’s also two other books that I did kind of for my grandson, fantastic Flying footwear and Fantastic Flying footwear too.
Sage: Oh my gosh, that’s so fun.
Joseph B: And then just recently. I self published my exhibition catalog.
Sage: Yeah, this is. Why I like you. It’s like me. Just you do everything you’re like. Oh, I. Could do that.
Joseph B: You know there is detrimental idea about this scattershot.
Sage: Yes. Yeah.
Joseph B: All over the. Place instead of concentrating on this one thing, but I think life is short and if I’m interested in something, I’m gonna investigate it.
Speaker
Right.
Sage: Let me ask you. So you went to college, you went on a journey, tried not to do art, had to do art, started a career, started a family. You’re doing art all the time, and then you retired and then you started in something else. But how did you? Know where to. I think it’s a little question for a lot of people. Where do I go from here?
Joseph B: Well, we had a pretty big house in Northern Virginia and we had to downsize and so we settled on this area and the House have had in size and square footage because of that, I wouldn’t have the two car garage size studio. So what I had to do was. Start thinking well. You know what materials am I going to use in an 11 by 11 room? And it just so happens that my wife is very creative. She’s an artist as well. At the time she was working with polymer clay. So I started to experiment with polymer clay because I knew that I could work in a smaller size but utilize the flexibility of what Paula Mcclay could do, you know, both in three dimensions and two dimension.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: So that downsizing fed me the idea to work with power claim.
Sage: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: So it was a very practical thing.
Sage: That got you into that new career. So, yeah. So really life circumstances determined a lot of where. You ended up.
Joseph B: Although I enjoy certain materials. I never married a material. You know, I never wanted to stay with the material forever. It was always about the image that was preeminent. That was most important.
Sage: Now here’s the interesting thing. Because polymer like there’s jewelry, there’s sculpture, there’s functional art, you know, bowls and home decor and that kind of thing. There’s not a lot of illusion. How did you come upon the idea of doing illustrative work, and in particular, how did you come upon doing this, sneak almost fibrous work with a clay material?
Joseph B: Well, there wasn’t anything being done like that. I said to myself, well, I have to be. Different I have.
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: To be something in the marketplace that stands out. So I thought ohh I. Could use Paul Mcclay but. How the heck can I use it so I did some experimentations and when I had bought the pasta machine there were basically two ways to go and that was flat or the spaghetti cut or, you know, or the fettuccine cutter.
Sage: Right. Oh uh huh. Those attachments for the poster machines, yeah.
Joseph B: So I did that and I’ve. Always admired the impressionist. And post impressionist. So instead of a brush stroke what I did was like you say a a snake of of polymer clay. And like the earlier Impressionists, they would use their brush strokes to denote the form, and I would do the same thing.
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: The spaghetti. And then also optically using the solid colors and then having the viewer optically combine those colors to get form and other colors.
Sage: Right. And the gradations and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ohh, that’s super interesting. To think about the clay as. An individual brush stroke. And we’ll have work of yours on Instagram and what not, so people can see, and of course they can follow your links to find all your stuff. But yeah, the stuff has. So much movement because the clay does follow the. Form they’re very. Very intentionally placed both in terms of the color combinations and the direction that they go in.
Joseph B: Oh yeah. It’s a time consuming way of. We are.
Sage: Yeah, but it’s it’s. It’s beautiful. The energy that comes off of that. And then same with the Impressionist work. And that’s really interesting to note that that’s where that kind of. Idea came from.
Joseph B: Now that I’ve said that, you can see the Impressionists and you know the early Impressionist network.
Speaker
100%.
Sage: Yeah, it’s very, very impressionistic. And I hadn’t really put that together. To me, it’s a. Very original work. And you just never stop.
Joseph B: No, no, that that’s the that’s the fun part, I think, yeah.
Sage: Isn’t it? Yeah, that’s. Always want to encourage people to explore and try something different and try something new. And it just really pushes you to consider all the possibilities, and you find new avenues and it keeps things from getting boring as well, right?
Joseph B: Right. And on the other side of that coin, it does incur a lot of curse words.
Sage: And a lot. Of mistakes in air quotes and so-called failures, and the fact that we use the word failures. But things that don’t work out the way we want them to. But that’s such a huge part of being an artist and exploratory aspect of it, I think is so important, but you risk. Doing poor work. You should figure it.
Joseph B: Right. In my case it’s OK if I fail because I. Know that I’m not going. To stop doing it anymore.
Sage: Right, right.
Joseph B: So it yeah, I have to make the choice of either. Do you want to try that again or do you want to set it aside and go do something else?
Speaker
Right.
Sage: So yeah, the whole thing about exploration of course is that it can be a little scary, but so was probably retirement. And and what you got into. And apparently when we started talking about what we were going to discuss during this interview, you brought up a book, which I’m assuming you got into because of, you know, getting into, you know, our later years, you have very different thoughts about what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, what your plans are for the future. And so you brought up. This book last night. And so tell us about the book and why that was important to you as an artist.
Joseph B: Well, the book was written by Richard Lacayo.
Sage: How do you spell that?
Joseph B: LACAYOI don’t know if that’s how you pronounce it, but that’s how you spelled.
Speaker
OK.
Sage: Spelling is important on the audio, so. We’ll go with that.
Joseph B: Yeah, it’s about how artists stay creative and innovative in their later life. There are six artists. That he talks about. In particular, and that is tishan. Goya, Monet, Matisse, Hopper and Nevelson.
Sage: OK.
Joseph B: It’s really relevant to me right now because and I am now a septuagenarian.
Sage: Damn it.
Joseph B: It happens to the best of us, the book.
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: Gives me encouragement.
Sage: OK.
Joseph B: You know, talking about these artists who worked into their 80s, nineties, it doesn’t mention Picasso, but Picasso will be another artist who worked late into his 90s as well as other artists. The idea of the book is not only working late, but being relevant and innovative. Late in life.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: So it’s very relevant to me now. It gives me encouragement. Hope even someone like Matisse, who was bedridden, who’s working out of his bed, you know, with his cut out shapes and colors.
Sage: Right, yeah.
Joseph B: I mean, he was responsible for designing and decorating a private Chapel that he did out of his bed. Pretty much now. He was fortunate at that time to be famous enough and wealthy enough to have assistance to do all the work.
Sage: Yeah, if if you could only I’ll have that later in life.
Joseph B: Right, yeah. You know, cut something out and hand it to it and just and say put that. On the wall, though, a little. Bit to the left, et cetera.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: So it gives me that encouragement. The hope that maintaining the health, maintaining my drive, I’ll be able to continue to create into my 80s, if not for.
Sage: Yeah, of course. Yeah, until last days. I’m sorry. Still be making things. So I guess the big message is it doesn’t matter how old you are. Just keep going.
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: It also has a message for younger people too, and that is that you can innovate at any age when you’re younger, you can switch over to something else.
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: I think of Goya, who in his later life after he was court. Painter started doing a lot of etchings and did some wonderful, wonderful etchings about war and pestilence. Now not the most positive of subjects.
Sage: Some dark times.
Joseph B: Yeah, yeah. They were actually very dark. But again, it’s innovative new techniques that he discovered changed his viewpoint, and I would tell that to anybody who’s stuck at any age. Even if they’re not stuck, you know, take a look around. You have an idea. You want to express it is what you’re doing now oil painting or watercolor? Is that the best way to express that idea that you. Have that concept.
Sage: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: One of the things that I was thinking about change and changing focus, changing artistic focus. If I were to give anybody. Suggestions. Or if if anybody asked me what I thought about something, my opinions I would first tell them don’t take anybody’s opinions. That’s the first thing I.
Speaker
From my opinion, yeah.
Joseph B: Tell them. Don’t take opinions.
Sage: First thing, just just ignore me.
Joseph B: The next thing I tell them. If they persevered. Was to be true to yourself, of course. An old adage. And but by that I mean change for whatever reason. You want to change.
Sage: Yeah, but for your own reasons. Is that what you’re saying?
Speaker
Right.
Joseph B: Yeah, but beware the implications of making that change as much as you possibly can. You know, changing material. Can affect the quantity of your output if I. Went and changed. To I don’t know, a welding to create my work. My outputs going to get a lot less also. There being a learning curve when you changed said don’t expect to be putting out your best work necessarily plan for something like that.
Sage: Right, right.
Joseph B: Know that that’s going to happen when you make the change. Also, if you change venues, changing venues is going to affect your exposure and in turn affect sales. Now with putting your work online, that may help somewhat, but then you’re facing other problems about your work online and how you accept payments.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: How are you going to make letting? Go of your work. Safer for you as well as the person buying it.
Sage: Yeah, yeah. And that’s the thing these days. You don’t get to have that personal relationship with your customers. If you’re doing things online, yeah.
Joseph B: Not all the time. And now the commissions that I had. Sometimes I’ve met the customers. Sometimes it’s just by phone or by e-mail. In all but one, I think. Lately this year. People have actually seen my work first. Yeah, not the. Particular piece I did for them, but have been to a show or something like that and seen the work and I also sell through Saatchi Art Online.
Sage: Right. Right. Oh, right.
Joseph B: And they’re more reputable, obviously. But people who buy through that don’t get to see the work necessarily first hand.
Sage: Right.
Joseph B: And with polymer clay, particularly the textural stuff that I do, it’s a whole different ball game when you actually. See the piece?
Sage: In person, yeah.
Joseph B: Yeah, there’s dust on it.
Sage: Dust on it. The colors come across differently the.
Speaker
Ohh yeah.
Sage: The the way it moves when you. Move. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Did you teach art?
Joseph B: My major in college was art education, and in my sophomore year in college, I had to do some student teaching. There’s a whole long story about student teaching in this small Catholic school that concerns me being sent to the principal office since.
Sage: As a teacher.
Joseph B: As a teacher.
Sage: Ohh I see. That’s not your career, huh?
Joseph B: I did teach at a private school called Berkeley Corporation in Pennsylvania. I taught computer graphics there, and I have also taught individual art classes. The other thing about teaching. That stop me. Was I had a very difficult time. Talking about my artwork to the point where I could not go into a gallery and show my work doesn’t seem it now, but because I.
Sage: Yeah, no. That’s not the job, know.
Joseph B: Because I would freeze. In fact, sometimes my wife would go with me and get the ball rolling, and then I’d answer questions. So I I said to myself, after we’re retired that I gotta do something about this. What am I gonna do? I gotta talk about my work. You know? How else am I going to get in galleries and shows or? Even write about my work, you know? So I went into analysis in. Three years worth. Of analysis and why I didn’t do it and it was a very, very valuable 3 years that I did that analysis.
Sage: I bet.
Joseph B: And if you had known me before. You would be surprised that I can’t. Talk now I had. To get free of that clamming up because. I wanted to talk. About the work. I wanted to talk like we’re doing talk about other people’s work, you know and share inform. But I just couldn’t do it. Another thing that helped me is what we’re doing right now. It’s easier for me to do it online even if we’re one to one like this. Then it would be to. Do it face to face?
Sage: Hmm. OK yeah.
Joseph B: But with the right people and and. I’m much better. Now I’m not totally there with the right people. Can do a face to face very easily.
Sage: Yeah, I think that’s not uncommon for artists to have a difficult time discussing their work. They don’t work verbally for the most part. And so there’s that. And so you’re translating what you’re doing in your mind visually into words and that. Can be difficult. If that’s not a medium that you’re familiar with, and So what did you do to help you become more comfortable with talking about your work?
Joseph B: Well, one of the things that I was advised to do was. I was creating. A poster to sell locally. This is different than my artwork for some extra money I’ve created. These posters and what my analyst told me to do was make it a point to go to different stores in the area. You know, tourist stores, stores that sell this type of work and talk. About it and just go. And you know, even if you can’t talk, to drop it off. To say something about it. And drop it off so that was a big turn for me because it wasn’t about my artwork per se. It it was some illustration work that I did that I wanted to sell, so it wasn’t as deep in me that I had to, you know, release and talk about. And I did that and that was very helpful. And I ended. Up with two places selling my posters because I pushed myself.
Sage: Oh, that’s great. There were baby steps, really.
Joseph B: Yeah, exactly. So that was one of the things that I did and the other course was to do what I did with us now and that was to write things down. Since you were kind enough to give me the questions, I was able to write all the answers and as soon as I did that sage, I felt so much better. So much easier, because then I said, well, the worst that could happen is. I’d read every single answer off. On the page.
Sage: That’s not how it goes on my.
Joseph B: Nobody’s going to be watching.
Sage: Podcast no?
Joseph B: I know. And then when we were talking and actually? I think it. Was your last podcast that I listened to. With your husband. You were talking about, you know, the back and forth about audience and stuff like that. And that was really helpful to me too.
Sage: Yeah, yeah, but it can be unnerving doing something that’s not familiar, you know, I mean. Just podcasting of itself was. Very strange for me to do because I mean identify as a writer and an artist, right? But I’m not an auditory person, and so I had to learn all this equipment, and I had learned the software.
Joseph B: Right.
Sage: It’s not like I hadn’t worked with it before for various reasons for video and this and that. But as it turns out, it’s the same thing. I mean, as a writer and you’ve written. Fiction as well. One of the big things is. You want to hear people? ‘S stories. And I think as artists. A lot of us are looking for story, even if we don’t call it story in what we see out in the world. And so that’s basically what we’re doing here. I’m trying to. Story out of you. I’m trying to make a connection that we can exchange stories and that ends up being the basis for the conversation and ends up being the basis, I think for a lot of artwork that we find story, find something that engages us and interests us and then we try to translate it in our minds into something visual. It may not be with words, but we’re basically doing the same thing, and that’s at least my perfect. From doing this now.
Joseph B: So when you’re eliciting stories, would you use some of the same methods that you use for your own work? You know, within the story that you write, would you use those same methods in your podcast?
Sage: You know, it’s no, I think it’s a little different because it’s coming from the other direction, right? So I’m trying to get you to tell me a story versus what I’m doing in my. They had. It’s handing me something. It’s very passive on my end, really. I’m just asking questions. And how does this become about you questioning me on this? Wait a minute.
Speaker
I got interest.
Sage: Enough about me. So I guess that’s another thing that you can do too, like you just tried to turn the tables on me. And ask me a bunch of questions.
Joseph B: I gotta talk to my analyst about that.
Sage: Go well. I mean, that’s another way of approaching it, I think is if you’re asking questions as well, you know, I mean more people want to talk about themselves more than they want to listen. A lot of the times. And that’s not necessarily a negative comments, just natural. We have all these stories we have these things in our heads that. We want to get out. It’s also. Why we’re artists, right? We have things in our heads. We want to get. So I think if you have a hard time talking about artwork, maybe one of the approaches could be asking questions I don’t know. Have you have you tried that as a as an approach to get more? Comfortable about talking about your artwork.
Joseph B: No, but I’d like the idea.
Sage: Yeah, it seems very natural for you to be asking the questions.
Joseph B: I do like the back and forth and and well, you know, I’ve been interviewed before and I tend to, after the main thrust and everything is done.
Sage: Uh, right?
Joseph B: I I’m interested in what you do too, of course.
Sage: Yeah, well, thanks. But I wanted to ask you, you brought up something that was I thought was really cool last time we talked. About the fact that you let people come into your studio while you’re working, which I would have a really hard time doing, I get too easily distracted. If there’s other people around but you actually like having people in your studio.
Joseph B: Oh, sure, yeah.
Sage: How did that come about?
Joseph B: Maybe because people don’t last long. In the studio. I don’t know. And then it’s easy to. When I was going to school on the Jersey Shore, I would take my sketchbook out and just sketch where I was on the beach on the boardwalk. You know any place in the San Diego area? I was. And people would come by and look you.
Sage: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: Know and watch me. Some people would start asking questions, so it became very natural for me. To work and talk to people you know through those times, they. Did it in New Zealand. Whenever I vacation New Zealand. My sketchbook was always. With me. So I would think that anybody who has done any plain air work. Am I pronouncing that right plain air?
Sage: I think it’s on planar. No, no.
Joseph B: But anybody who does that has to experience that, you know, and I would think that most people are at least polite about answering questions while they’re working.
Sage: Yeah, yeah. Right.
Joseph B: But so I’ve had that experience in the past when I worked in my 2 car garage in Virginia. Oftentimes I’d have both doors up and if the doors are open, sure I would, I would talk.
Sage: Yeah, come on in. Yeah.
Joseph B: No, it wasn’t always. Very practical or productive because of that, but.
Sage: Production, right? Yeah.
Joseph B: I think it’s valid. Able to do what I’m doing now, exchanging information with people about about what I. Do and not. Even necessarily about me, but that art gets done and it’s not anything magical or anything else like that. Is that hands-on carving tool saw paintbrush? Type of thing.
Sage: Right. I was going to ask you how do you get people into your studio? Bowls of candy out. Come on in there.
Joseph B: No sign, no sign outside or anything. It’s just that if I if I have visitors. Well, for one thing, I’m in the studio practically all day, alright?
Sage: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: So if a neighbor comes by where we have guests or something like this. The door is open.
Sage: There you go. Yeah.
Joseph B: They’ll come in and. Have a seat. Let’s talk. You know, whatever. And sometimes I’ll keep working. Sometimes I won’t. Like my girls are used to that. When they’re over, you know if it’s. Early in the morning and we’re. Not going any place. Special or whatever. The case come in the studio and sit.
Sage: Yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: And and we’ll talk then and then when, when. My grandson comes over. He’ll take over. The the work table. I’ll get the play dough out for him and we’ll do play dough things all the time. Or else he likes to draw on the Wacom tablet too.
Sage: Ohh yeah yeah. So yeah, I just thought like the whole idea of having somebody in your studio for those of you who. Have issues with concentrating because it is so isolating. That’s one of the things. If you can invite somebody in and I do know some people who actually will invite people to be online while they work, like kind of like when you all get together for the international Paul Mcclay Association chats a lot of you are working and then everybody’s online just talking so.
Joseph B: Oh yeah.
Sage: So those are just options to keep yourself from being so isolated. I mean, one of the reasons this podcast is done the way it is, kind of like a chat and more. Sensational is so that you can listen to it while you’re in the studio. Maybe you feel like you’re more part of a conversation and not quite so alone in what. You’re doing so.
Joseph B: I definitely listen to your podcast while I’m working as well as other art podcasts.
Sage: Yeah, it helps. I think for me to focus to have some kind of input from the outside world while you’re working. All right, let’s go ahead. We’ve, we’ve hit on a lot of stuff, but let’s ask some of the really what I think are core questions for all the artists that I bring on #1, how do you feed your?
Joseph B: Well, one thing generally I’ll see something outside of my car window, or if I’m walking and if I like it, whatever it is, I’ll stop and I’ll. Take a photo. And I don’t. Always use the photos. You know, just like anything like sketches, you may come back to them and they’re not quite right. So that’s one thing. I belong to maybe seven or eight different organizations, both in this area and in DC.
Speaker
Oh wow.
Joseph B: See that I continuously get information from from both their websites and mailings and then when I’m in the area, I’ll go visit those organizations and museums. I subscribe to gallery newsletters galleries that I like the work that’s in them. I make sure I subscribe to them so that. When I sit down in the morning and I check my e-mail, they’ll come up and. I’ll either read them fully or I’ll. Just look at the pictures. Read books like The Last light like I’m reading now. Most of the books I read are nonfiction, and they concern art. And also TV, there’s a couple of great TV shows on PBS and one is art 21 and craft in America. Both of those really fun ones.
Sage: So lots of media and it sounds like just trying to get a lot of information and constantly keep art on the top of the mind. Do you have any like new or novel experiences? Anything we’ve done recently that like might be an interesting thing to share for the listeners about, you know, that helps feed your music?
Joseph B: I’ve been working primarily in the last shows only with power and with these newer ideas I have. They’re going to incorporate other materials with the polymer like it’s a little bit more of a challenge because there’s more construction.
Sage: OK.
Joseph B: It’s like if you’re doing jewelry, you got to concern yourself with the backing. With pins. With all that sort of stuff yet.
Sage: The functionality, yeah.
Joseph B: So yes, this is a little bit different. I’ve done it in the past and I have to do it with these about four or five ideas that I have just stating.
Sage: So it sounds like most all of your experiences, your muse feeding is from art about art, very art focused.
Joseph B: Yeah, absolutely.
Sage: So I’d like to end the podcast talking about success because I think it’s just such a super important thing to keep in mind that success is an individual thing. So Joseph, what is your version of? Makes sense?
Joseph B: Well, success really depends on your aims, what your goals are. So you set yourself up for a success or a failure by which your goals are. My goals? It’s a simple goal and that’s to be able to continue to create my work. It’s just that simple. If I sell it, that’s good. That’s the business end of doing this. That’s fine. The success of how the things I make sell. It’s not me, or if other people like my work, the the work is successful in their eyes, which is good too.
Sage: Right, right. Yeah, gotta be a little booze, right?
Joseph B: You know, it’s it. That’s a real positive thing.
Sage: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joseph B: Yeah, absolutely. But the success is for me to continue working and that entails an awful lot sage, you know, because again. Yeah, I’m going to use the word that I’ve learned recently, septuagenarian substitutionary.
Sage: They’ve learned recently.
Joseph B: Part of attaining that success is is keeping healthy. Basically so that you can continue so that I can continue to create and do these things.
Sage: Right. Right, absolutely. I am 100% with you. So well that was great. Thank you so much, Joseph. That was a great talk and conversation and thank you for interviewing me.
Speaker
I’m here.
Joseph B: I have other questions, but I’ll. Hold back now.
Sage: Great. Well, thanks. So much for joining, I really appreciate. You coming on? With me today.
Joseph B: Thank you, Seth. I had a great.
Sage: And if you had a great time as well, if you want to know more about Joseph’s work, you can find him as mentioned at paradisestudios.com. He also is on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube, all under Joseph Barbatia, the last name spelled BARBACIA, which you could. See in the episode title. I suppose he’s also sells his work on satyr art. I also listed his books and his solo show, and all of the links I just mentioned in the show notes. So take a look at those you. Can link straight through there. Well, I hope you enjoyed that windy journey through Joe’s thoughts on change, the change in our lives as artists. It’s just kind of a dipping of the toes in the water thing, so if any part of that conversation really made an impression on you, it might be time to dive in and really explore what changes you have going on or are coming up ahead of you next week’s episode. May actually help with that. It’s going to be about downtime. The kind that refuels you and allows you to figure out these kinds of things, but it’s probably not the kind of downtime that comes to mind. I have a kind of essential, but not often considered view on the necessary kind of downtime for. Creative, but it’s. Backed by studies, and it’s something both Brett and I have been working on for a while now and we can really attest to its usefulness. So you can start thinking about the changes in your life that need further exploration. And next week, I’ll give you some ideas about how to give yourself the space and mental energy to do the work that needs doing. In the meantime, don’t forget to send me your comments and stories at the sagearts.com website. Seek those donation buttons on the home page if you’re able to give back or buy us some stickers or publications at 10th musearts.com. That’s 10th spell dot TNTH. Don’t forget to hit the follow button on your podcast player so you don’t miss an episode and follow on social media. On Facebook or Instagram, both under the Sage Arts Podcast, all one word. If you want to help spread the word, hit the share button on those posts, or you’re welcome to grab the images and repost them. So other creatives that might be needing this kind of conversation can better find the podcast. OK, well I’m. Running off to feed my muse this weekend. We’re going to. Drive up the coast a little ways. I’m super excited about the photo opportunities because the wildflowers are just mad out here in California. Just all the rain. So much is growing that doesn’t usually come out in any kind of quantity, and it’s just crazy. So I’m looking forward to that. Will be. You will get out and feed your muse this weekend or this week as spring has sprung everywhere or fall is falling. If you’re down under but. These seasons have change. They’re just such. Perfect backdrops as you ponder the ideas that you heard. Today, so until next time, keep. Feeding your muse be true to your weirdness. And I’ll chat with you next week. On the Stage Arts podcast.
