Ep.017 Artist and Audience

Who is your audience and what is your relationship with them? What are you providing or sharing with your audience and what do you need from them?

A co-host artist’s chat, Brett and I work through everything from who we create for to whether we need an audience to why audience size is irrelevant and more. We really dig down to the essence of the value of what we do for the wider world as well as for the enrichment of our own lives. Gain new and surprising perspectives on what you do for others with your art and what your audience can do for you.

More about Your Hosts:

https://www.instagram.com/brett.varon

https://www.instagram.com/sagebrayvaron/

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CREDITS:

Cover design by Sage; Illustration by Olga Kostenko

Music by Playsound

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Transcript

EP017 – Artist and Audience

Sage: 

You only need to be validated by a small number of people by the people that feel connected to you by the yeah, the people who the work that you do changes things for them and you make their lives a little bit better. 

Brett: 

Your audience. 

Speaker 3 

Yeah, hello all you. 

Sage: 

Wonderful, creative, curious people out there. This is sage. Thank you for joining me on the Sage Arts podcast. I am in the studio today with my better half Brett me, hi me, Brett Varrens here with me today. 

Brett: 

Me. Hello. 

Sage: 

You know that guy that I live with? Yeah, I’m married to. 

Brett: 

And spend a lot of time with annoyed by. 

Sage: 

I spend so much time with. See, I brought Brett in today because I wanted to talk about the opposite of what we did in the last episode, which was I was talking about seeing the the artist the way you see as an artist. So originally the conversation was about being seen rather than seeing, and then we just kind of distilled it down to talking about audience. Because so much of the conversation was about how do we deal with other people? How do the people see us? And we see other people we’re talking about the people who are interested in what we’re doing, whether they’re. Buying our art or. Viewing our content. Or following us on social media or whatnot. So out of any of our creative endeavors, we generally have an audience. It’s a big part of why many of us do what we do without an audience. Some people and I, I don’t necessarily agree with this. Some people feel like you’re not creating art or it’s not art until it has an audience, so that’s something we’ll also talk about. But yeah, the audience is so important and so much of what we do. And how does that affect what we do, the choices that we make, what is our relationship with the audience and what is the audiences relationship with? Plus, but before we really dive into this, let’s quickly take care of some little bits of business. I usually do shout outs at this point. But even though listenership jumped up quite a bit last week, that seems to be mostly what you’re doing listening, which of course I don’t object to, but also don’t be shy to let me know what you think, good, bad or otherwise. I love to hear from any and all of you and I love saying hi on the airwaves, so reach out with any passionate or stray thoughts and get a shout out here on the podcast. You’ll find links in the show notes to go to the contact page on the sagearts.com so you can leave me an e-mail or a voice. Message if you appreciate and value the work put into this podcast, you can give back by staying on the homepage at the sagearts.com and scrolling down to find the buy me a coffee and PayPal give back buttons or buy some stickers or polymer art related publications at 10th musearts.com that’s 10th spelled out. There are links for all of these in the. Show notes as well. Regardless of your inclinations, there go ahead and click that follow button on your podcast player if that’s how you’re listening. That pushes me up the ranks, which I would love that help with, and it also puts new episodes in your podcast player feed so you know when they’re available. You can also get notices of the most recent episodes plus associated bonus material when that’s relevant for that episode. By signing up for a little reminder e-mail that I send out on the weekends, that’s also at the sagearts.com on the homepage. Just look for the teal news and notices button there. OK, my audience, back to the subject of audience. I think the questions you might be trying to answer for yourself during this listen is who is your? Audience and what is your relationship with? Them what are you? Providing or sharing with your audience and what do you need from them? OK, so I think the first thing to really contemplate when we’re talking about audience is the question of whether you can make art without an audience. Because I think for both of us, we would make stuff regardless if anyone ever saw it, right. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it is. It’s the exercise of. And that you want to spend time doing just for the sake of doing it? And it’s not for the purpose of having an audience necessarily, but it feels good to have an audience. 

Sage: 

Right. It feels good to have an audience and we’ll definitely talk about why we might need one. Yeah, for me. Same thing. I’ve always just made things. In fact, when I did the interview on the Handmade Mentor Podcast, Vanessa asked me when did I? Find the spark. The creative spark that made me want to. Be an artist and I. Was just like I there wasn’t. One I just always have been making things. I always make things I don’t think having an audience or not would change that if I was a hermit up in the mountains for whatever reason, cause I was the last person alive in the apocalypse, I would still be making stuff. Yeah. I just. I couldn’t not do. It so I think for some of us it is an integral part. Of our fabric. Of who we are and for other people, I think there are other rewards from the act of creating beyond just the process that may be instigative. Is that a word? Maybe an instigator for the act and going on a creative journey. 

Brett: 

Yeah, we all have different reasons, right? Like, is it an escape from reality? 

Sage: 

Right. 

Brett: 

Is it, is it a a way. To cope in the. 

Sage: 

World Way to make money. 

Brett: 

Away to make money. Yeah, there’s all kinds of reasons and all those things just make a different Stew in each person, you know? 

Sage: 

Yeah, I have a theory, and I’ve probably mentioned this on the podcast already. Before, but it’s to me it’s a really. Or in theory, that we as human beings can’t find like a real, fulfilling deep happiness without creating cause. I think we need to take something that’s inside us. The things that are inside us and put it out in the world like we want to contribute to the world in some way and not just keep it all inside. So creativity is really taking something that’s in your mind that’s in your emotions. And putting it out in whatever form, sometimes a tangible form, sometimes a performance or music or whatnot, but that just something of yourself is put out into the world and I feel like that’s a really prime. People urge for people and it comes in. All different forms. 

Brett: 

Well, you’re doing it right now with using words creatively and and you know, making a difference that way, like this is your form of, in a way, your form of art. 

Sage: 

Yeah, trying to share. Yeah, yeah. 

Brett: 

So that sharing is a real part of the process of seeing things grow and evolve. 

Sage: 

These days with our global reach, social media allows us to be in touch with so many people. But that also becomes an issue for us as artists, because we do have such a global reach because there is such an audience and we have the ability to reach out and get feedback from an audience in a way that artists didn’t have before, like didn’t have anything near what we do now. We can get feedback instantaneously. You put something up on Instagram or Facebook or whatnot. And you get immediate comments, you get likes, you get something, you get some kind of feed. Back and so it’s a very different landscape and that was part of the conversation when we first started trying to delve into what we wanted to talk about was that when we were younger, you didn’t have an audience. You know, when we, you know, right, your parents or your friends or your classmates. 

Brett: 

You know my parents. I guess, you know. 

Sage: 

If you were taking classes, you had an audience of sorts there that you get feedback from people. But today you can be doing whatever whenever you can be six years old, making you know finger paint art and maybe six years old. So it’s old finger paint. I don’t. Know all the six year olds out. 

Speaker 

There, like, hey, hey, I’m in the color. 

Brett: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Sage: 

Pencils now, Dang it. But you can be very young and have a global audience. Just like that just by getting online and putting stuff up there or having your mother put stuff. 

Brett: 

That crazy that’s normalized, that’s going to be very normal. 

Sage: 

Up there, whatever. Right, yeah, yeah. 

Brett: 

So it’s yeah. 

Sage: 

But we grew up without an audience. Certainly a wide-ranging audience and we knew our audience when we were younger. It was family, friends, classmates, you know, people that you knew. 

Brett: 

Little bit more in that in. That world? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, physical human beings not. 

Sage: 

And all these AI’s out there, everybody but yeah, so it was a different kind of environment to develop as an artist because you didn’t have to think about an audience. 

Brett: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Sage: 

I remember in college I don’t know if we ever talked about audience. I don’t think we ever talked about who our customers would be. And nowadays I know. Like, my niece is looking at going to San Francisco State University, which was my. Me where I got my masters degree in writing, but she’s going there for music production. 

Brett: 

That’s right, yeah. 

Sage: 

And a big part of their conversation, apparently, is going to be about finding your customer base, finding your audience, finding your part of the industry that’s going to fulfill what you need, and just the fact that they’re talking about that is a huge change. Like we were in art. School. It was all about. Art, there’s such kind of like a purity to the conversation about art. I think. I thought there was. 

Brett: 

Oh yeah, I can see that. 

Sage: 

You know, so we were just entrenched in making art. I don’t know if anyone even talked about how are you? Going to sell your artwork. You know, I mean, we made our rounds of the gallery circuits and towards the end of getting my degree, I know I started to get more involved and go to more galleries and try to get to know people and I was pretty shy even then. Networking was still pretty hard, but you know, like at some point I gotta figure out what I’m going to do with my art. You know, I’m going to have. A career out of this, I’m going to sell it, but up until that point. We just made stuff. We just made stuff. Barely anyone else saw it. 

Brett: 

Yeah, for the for the sake of making it, I never really thought, oh, I’m being creative. That was never a thought. It just you do it and I just love spending that time. Put some music. On and. 

Sage: 

And just get lost in in the work. 

Brett: 

Just get lost in it and yeah, loved. 

Sage: 

Uh huh? 

Brett: 

It loved it. 

Sage: 

Well, I I know when I first started doing artwork, I literally did it for no other. Just then I enjoyed it cuz when I went into college from high school I was actually a writing major. And then I started my first year of college and I just. Did art cuz? It was fun, but I had an art teacher. I took a advanced life drawing class. I think it was and he just kept prodding me. It’s like, why aren’t you an art major? Why aren’t you an art? And I’m like, you know, this is just for fun. I mean, I’d never want to really go into art. And and he was just like, he’s like, come on. You should be an art major. And that’s stuck in my mind until I went to Long Beach. And then I thought, you know, maybe I will go into art. And not into writing cause I’ve been writing all my life and I’m like, I think I need to. Know more about. If I want to continue doing this on a level. And that’s when I was really thinking, yeah, maybe I need to do this more seriously, but the kind of moral of the story is I spent 17. 18 years of my. Life doing all kinds of visual creative work without any intention whatsoever. Of having an audience. So I think I would say, at least in my personal experience, not having an audience initially was extremely helpful. You know. 

Brett: 

It’s it’s liberating in a way, cause it’s just pure. You’re doing what you do. 

Sage: 

Because I was just learning about myself and what I wanted to do, and by the time I got out of college, I knew I loved working with wood and charcoal, and I like to paint. 

Brett: 

It makes sense. 

Sage: 

But there’s something missing in painting. I wanted it to be more dimensional and I want to have more texture and so that’s why polymer art fit for me because. It has that but. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it’s basically sculpture, yeah. 

Sage: 

But I. Got to know a lot about myself by not having an audience to think about. At least I think so. So not everybody. Has that luxury. If you want to get into particular material, sometimes you need to as soon as possible be turning things out to sell. Just to pay for. What you’re doing, I mean some things are. 

Brett: 

But you don’t have to. You don’t have to sell things. It could be something, you know, if you have. Another way of making money. 

Sage: 

No, but some in some areas you do like, let’s say you wanted to go into jewelry, art and you want to work with sterling and gold or any of those kinds of things. You can’t, unless unless you’re you have a, you know, a rich husband or a. 

Brett: 

Oh, I see. I see. Or wife, right? 

Sage: 

Rich partner or? Or rich or a lot of money. The banks. It’s gonna be a difficult thing to do. Without seeing the funds come back in. Now, if you’re just sketching or doing color pencil or even polymer, which isn’t terribly expensive, there is some investment in it. But if there’s enough of investment that it is a difficulty for your budget, then you may have to recoup it. You may have to look into to. I need an audience. I need to sell some stuff in order to. 

Brett: 

Or two I guess so yeah. 

Sage: 

Just fund my. Obsession or whatever it is. 

Speaker 4 

So you’re saying you’re. 

Brett: 

Saying there’s an investment in having an audience, it helps validate the income. 

Sage: 

It it can help fund your your creativity, your art form, your creative journey. 

Brett: 

So that’s one. That’s one type of audience to seek. 

Sage: 

Yeah. So. 

Brett: 

There’s different audiences to seek, yeah. 

Sage: 

All right. And that’s the first question. Do you need an audience? I would say if you don’t need an audience, if you don’t need to sell things, if you don’t need to consider what other people. One thing I personally think that Ed is a fantastic time to just explore what you do and why. You do it. For yourself and find a personal voice if you can, and I would even include, and I know this is really hard these days to not post it. Because even if you can say to yourself, I don’t care what people say or. I’m not going to post everything, so it’s not going to be in the back of my mind if you think you might put something online. I think for most of us, it’s very hard to get rid of the consideration that what will people say. Well, people like this. Well, I get a lot of attention for this. You know, it’s not a bad thing that we think like that. And I think that will end up being part of the conversation as we go on. But I do think that we are influenced, even, maybe unconsciously, that if something’s going to be put out there that you know, what kind of reaction might get. Well, people like this is this the kind of thing that people want to see right now? 

Brett: 

It puts a value judgment on it that doesn’t need to be there during the process or after the process. 

Sage: 

Well, at least when you’re trying to find your own voice when you’re first discovering you know what you’re doing and maybe you’ve been artistic before. And so you think I I can just go into this material, which is totally fine in new material, but maybe spend some time with the material before you start presenting it, putting it. 

Speaker 4 

I I if we’re. 

Sage: 

Out in the world. 

Brett: 

All we’re all born with a voice, so even if your first child like little prey on skin. Draw a house, draw a little person. Those are just as valid as you know when you’re older. It’s just all part of the stages of your journey. 

Sage: 

Well, we all have. A voice. The problem is a lot of. Us don’t know. Where it is, our voice gets buried by the influences that we have in society by what other people have told us by what we see when we spend a lot of time online looking at what other people do, we start to think, oh, that’s what I’m supposed to do. 

Brett: 

Oh, that’s true. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, fulfills the need, fulfills the expectation. They’re looking at Instagram, and they see an example of something they think, oh, that’s the standard. It got a billion likes, so that’s what I should do because there is a desire to get an audience. 

Sage: 

Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So do you need an audience? 

Brett: 

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t, and but it’s always nice and it feels like good to share what I do. 

Sage: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Brett: 

You know, it validates. 

Speaker 4 

It to a degree. 

Sage: 

So that that kind of moves on to one of the other coins here, what do we need from our audience? What are the things that we want to get from them and I think? Well, for a lot of people, sales. 

Brett: 

Besides, their money, is that what you’re saying? 

Speaker 

Please buy please. 

Sage: 

Well, but no, they just want to think this because some of us don’t want money from our audience. 

Brett: 

Where’s the cash? Very true. 

Sage: 

I wish I didn’t have to ask for money. I wish I didn’t have to say, hey, everybody, if you like what I’m doing, please send me money cause you know, I mean, I’m otherwise doing this for free and for a little while that’ll be fine. But at some point, I’m. Going to have to. Be able to fund this podcast. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it’s just. 

Sage: 

You know, otherwise I can’t keep doing it, you know? So sometimes we have to look and say we need. Sales and sometimes you. Don’t, but for some people, like if you have retired and you’re just looking for something to do, you have enough income to put into your particular medium to continue doing it without having to have a business. Out of it, I mean, God, what wonderful freedom that is. You can make these things you can give them away. You can give them to friends. You could sell them at a charity auction. That would be such great freedom to be able to do that. Although I think for some people having someone pay for your work is a kind of audience affirmation, and I think that’s a huge thing. For a lot of us that we want to get from an. Audience, whether it is people buying it or people liking it online or having your stuff in a gallery and hearing positive comments about your work, we need that affirmation that what we’re doing is something of value to other people. 

Brett: 

So we can keep doing it. That’s the way I look. 

Speaker 4 

At it it’s it helps, it helps the the. 

Sage: 

Motivation wise. 

Brett: 

Roads open to be able to keep doing it. 

Sage: 

Yeah, yeah. We need the motivation to know that what we’re doing has value to people beyond ourselves. A lot of times. But yeah, so I think some of the things that we want from our audience is that affirmation we’re also talking about the fact that at certain ages you want different things. I think we’re younger. We’re looking for our place in society. So I think we need to actually be able to find our tribe, find acceptance. 

Brett: 

Sense of belonging, yeah. 

Sage: 

Those things are important when we’re younger. We don’t have social and financial security in our lives yet because we’re just becoming. We’re just becoming our own person and losing hold on the apron strings and that kind of thing. We want to know where we belong and where we’re gonna build our. Lives from and then. My theory is when you get older, it kind of turns from. Although I think that’s always part of it, knowing that you have a place in the Community that you’re in, but that we want to have a purpose. Most of us are not doing art that’s going to help solve world hunger or World Peace or alleviate homelessness or whatnot, but we want to know that what we’re doing is purposeful because as you get older, especially into your retirement years and stuff, you start think about legacy. 

Brett: 

Yeah, you start thinking about what does it mean? I think it’s human nature to want to be remembered that this energy, this like creativity that comes through us, this inclination, we want to be acknowledged that that matters. And for it to last and for people to remember it, it’s an encouragement in a way to pass it on to other people, to to immortality. 

Sage: 

So looking for immortality. 

Speaker 4 

I that’s. 

Brett: 

Yeah, that’s crazy. That’s been bad. I I never really thought about immortality. I don’t. I don’t really consciously feel like I want. 

Sage: 

Writers think about that. That’s a conversation, and at least I have had. 

Brett: 

Do they? 

Sage: 

But when you put something out there outside of yourself and it can live on and be shared continuously, you know, books are particularly that way because they can be printed in literally 1,000,000 millions of people could read your work. And it could live on in history as part of you, you know, and artwork can too. Just the idea that what you do when you finally leave this plane of existence, that you will leave behind something of import. 

Brett: 

I don’t know. It’s not about ourselves. It’s about, you know, having this purpose. And you know, it makes me think about, like, where is this inclination come from, you know? 

Speaker 3 

But like we. 

Sage: 

Were talking about like sometimes you look at social media, for instance. This is one of the reasons I have a hard time being on social media too much. And you see. All the work that’s being done out there and I love seeing the beautiful work that people do, and I love seeing what people are excited about, the things that they’ve completed. That’s why I get. On there at all. But you are just one. Other little voice. Amongst millions of people trying to be seen trying to be heard. 

Brett: 

It feels like it’s just gushing in. Is it? 

Sage: 

So why add to? 

Brett: 

That yeah, I picture like a a dam breaking. You know, the Hoover Dam is like, you know, this. And it’s like, what is one more drop of water in this big flood of of right, awesome creativity and awesome people doing their thing. And you know, thinking about this, what we’re gonna talk about with having an audience, it really put me through a whole process to really figure out. Well, I had feelings about all that, you know? And I didn’t know exactly what they were, you know, until I, you know, you had to kind of. Pull it out of me. 

Sage: 

I did a little bit. 

Brett: 

Like you know, again, I don’t really wanna talk about it. I don’t know why. It’s just like a thing. I don’t think about that much. Though and what I. Do I? Think about an audience and cartoons. Yeah, in so much that I am communicating and connecting with them to do. Something that’s clear and funny and and entertaining. That’s the something I’d love to do. So I think about an audience there, but with my own work, how important is it and why am I doing it? Is it to make money or is it to have fans? You know. 

Sage: 

Well, and that’s yeah, the fan thing is like I think it’s comes to that subject of you want to stand out and you want to feel special. So if you have fans, you feel like you are special. And I think when online today, it’s really hard to feel special when there’s so many other people doing such amazing work. And I don’t think there’s anyone who get online and not think that someone else is doing something better than them, more important than them. 

Brett: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you’re comparing yourself to others and you’re seeing, although what you could perceive as either competition or what you could aspire to. So it could drive you but more times than not, it makes a lot of people feel like why? Oh my gosh, I’m going to do one more thing. And how is it going to be as good as? That you know. 

Sage: 

Right. And if it’s not as good as that, why should I be? Doing it. 

Brett: 

And it’s constant. 

Sage: 

And this is a big reason why I wanted to talk about this, because I think a lot of people do get frustrated by looking out at the landscape, which for many of us is represented by social media, the landscape of the communities that we’re in as artists and the audience. That we’re trying to sell to and I think we have perhaps too high an expectation of what we think we need for. Audience no one person is everybody’s cup of tea. The fact is, is you only need to get maybe one other person’s attention. It depends on what your goals are, but if you can change one. Other person’s life. For the better, your work has meaning your work has purpose. If you can change somebody’s life from being dreary and. Humdrum and depressing by giving them something that gives them joy. Like I did art jewelry for a long time. And one of the main reasons I liked doing art jewelry was because I actually got to see people put them on, cause I’d be at these shows, you know, and they put this stuff on and then you could see them like, yeah, stand a little taller and make them feel beautiful. And they were just just so happy to have these things that made them feel more confident about them. And that was just a really amazing magical thing to be able to do with my artwork. And it’s the same thing with it’s a drawing and painting and illustration. 

Brett: 

Gave us a great purpose to your artwork. 

Sage: 

Yes, it it lives beyond you. And even though we think, oh, I want all these people to pay attention to me, just show me validation that I’m better than most people. Therefore, what I’m doing is worthwhile. You only need to be validated by a small number of people by the people that get you. You by the people that feel connected to you by the yeah, the people who the work that you do mean something to them. 

Brett: 

Your audience. 

Sage: 

And that changes things for them, whether it’s just something that makes them smile or something that makes them happy, they buy a picture and put it on the wall at home. And every time they go buy, it gives them a little lift. You know, whatever that thing is the sculpture that they. Leave on the bookcase that sits behind them at work and they turn around. They see this thing and it makes them happy to have those things. It contributes to the environment that they live in or work in, and you make their lives a little bit better. By having work that gives them joy. 

Brett: 

So and what were you saying about like, doing the work, your own work yourself your own way, and then let the audience find it? 

Sage: 

Oh yeah, so if you’re trying to make artwork to fulfill what you think the general populace wants, then you’re gonna have a very hard time having a true, honest, authentic voice. 

Brett: 

And what are those fish biting on? I want to put that. On my hook, yeah. 

Sage: 

Right. And, you know, all of us. Want to we’re. Like, hey, if that’s working, I want that on my hook too, yeah. But I think it’s better to try to focus on making what makes you happy and then you find the audience, not the other way around. 

Brett: 

Because the audience will see what makes you happy in it. Well, if they do, then they will be attracted to it. And if they don’t, then they don’t. You can’t miss that passion in the work. And I think that always attracts me as an audio. And remember, it always makes me look at things more and it makes me want to have it around me and it encourages me. 

Sage: 

Right. And I do have to acknowledge that a lot of what we’re talking about in this portion of the conversation is a little idealistic in that if we have the luxury to just work on stuff that makes us happy and just have that voice, if we don’t have to sell our work, if it’s not part of our income and we don’t have to really pay attention to trends and market and whatnot in order to sell. 

Brett: 

Ah yeah. 

Sage: 

Now I think I may have said this before and I apologize. I repeat certain things. That if you do have to sell your work and you do have to pander to an audience, or really just pay attention to what the audience wants in order to sell in order to make the money that you need, I hope you also have set time aside to make things that is purely for yourself because you want to continue to have your voice come out and your work. Even if you are making things based on trends, the colors of the year, whatever. That you are able to stay in touch with your own voice. I I’ve brought up a number of artists I know who do what they love on one hand, and then they do what the market wants. And I did that. I did that myself when I first started being a working artist cuz it’s so hard to make a living at it. I originally went in making the things that I wanted with these kind of big crazy necklaces. They’re very ornate and very kind of almost costuming. I mean, they were just. I went and sold at Fantasy and science fiction art conventions cuz those are the kind of people that wanna wear that kind of stuff, but it was still hard to sell. It was still hard to sell those pieces to that audience. It’s not a big price ticket audience, so I couldn’t sell those pieces for five or $600.00 I could sell them for 150 or $200.00 maybe. 

Brett: 

And the time it took you probably was a lot, yeah. 

Sage: 

And it wasn’t necessarily worth it. So in order to make enough money to make what I was doing worthwhile, I did a lot of kind of gimmicky things. I made little fairy doors that you could bury in your garden and they would light up and and these kinds of, you know, smaller things that I knew would sell. 

Speaker 3 

Thank you. 

Brett: 

Well, it sounds like you. 

Sage: 

And then. 

Brett: 

Yeah, you. Sounds like you had your audience in mind with that and you? 

Sage: 

I did and and I did that because I knew I I can make X amount of those they would sell, they would pay for my booth and my cost for getting in there. 

Brett: 

Were thinking about what would sell. 

Sage: 

And I know I would not lose. And then I just hope. 

Speaker 

To sell the other. 

Sage: 

Yeah, and because that’s where I would make the money. So I had to do both. I did the stuff that I wanted to do, and then I did the stuff. I knew the market wanted as well, so. If your audience is asking for one thing but doesn’t quite feel like what you want to be doing now, but you still kind of. Have to. I hope you don’t set aside what you want to do. The things that you really want to be making and only do what the market is asking for cause you know I think your artistic voice having that come out is super important for you to have the joy of that. But I think for us the bottom line is that you have to remember that everything that you do know how to how small it seems. If you are adding to the betterments of our world, it is absolutely a important, worthwhile thing to be doing. And I think that’s and I think that’s something to remember as an artist that you don’t need to affect hundreds of thousands of people. You don’t need to have 2000 likes on any one Instagram post. 

Brett: 

Fair. Yeah. Things catch on. They don’t catch on. 

Sage: 

Right, you just need to have a few people or handful of people. You just need to have an audience that really enjoys what you do. And if you have that audience, if you, if you’ve connected with people on any level that they are better for what you do, then what you’re doing is absolutely worthwhile. I mean, look at what you do. For living day-to-day, you make cartoons. Why do you make cartoons? I mean, why is that? Important and I think it’s important because it gives people time in the day where they can laugh and smile and and find something funny out in the world and and see the world differently. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it tickles you and it makes you curious and question things and yes. 

Sage: 

Yes, and this is something we were talking about the other day because he gets little royalties from various things that he wrote for directed or what nine. He still gets royalties for things. And then from all. The world. You’re the last check you got was like Argentina and Slovakia. 

Brett: 

Eight it was $8 million. I I was so happy. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. Yeah. It’s like 80 bucks. 

Sage: 

It was. It was $82 but. 

Brett: 

Sometimes, yeah. 

Sage: 

But it lists all the places that these things are playing. 

Brett: 

Yeah, better watch. 

Sage: 

Some of them are things that you did. I mean, how long ago was the grim? Adventures of Billy and Mandy. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it was like it was 1926, I believe, when just after the. Big war. 

Sage: 

So Billy and Mandy was, yeah, so. 

Brett: 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s early 2000s. 

Sage: 

And it’s still being played in different places throughout the world. So it’s kind of highlights the fact that our work goes on and has a life beyond what we do. 

Speaker 4 

Yes, that is crazy. 

Sage: 

So like at a show, I would sell these fairy doors and I’m like, OK, good. I made my money. I’m able to pay for my booth and that’s where my. Thought is my the the sale. 

Brett: 

So practical. So pragmatic. 

Sage: 

The sale, I know, but we can be very often right. 

Brett: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Sage: 

I think the sale of those doors, those little garden doors, was the end of my relationship with that art, right. But it’s not the end of that relationship. Those pieces have with the people that took them home, and years later I ran into someone at a show or whatnot. Went and they were. Like oh, I bought one of your fairy doors like 5. Six years ago. And I still go out my garden at night and it lights up. And I think oh, there’s no fairies in my garden, and it just makes me so happy. 

Speaker 4 

That’s cool, yeah. 

Sage: 

And I’m like, oh, my God, this thing is, you know, but a lot of our work does go on to have a life of its own. 

Speaker 4 

That’s cool. 

Sage: 

If it’s a painting or a picture, what not this one puts on a wall and it livens up the room. It could be a point of discussion. Between the family members that live there or a friend that comes over. 

Speaker 

It could be. 

Speaker 4 

A huge argument people so people could love it and you could hate it. 

Sage: 

It could be divorce over it over. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, exactly. Wars are fought. Swords are drawn. 

Sage: 

But the fact. Is is what we do, does matter beyond what we know of it beyond the sale of it beyond when we hand it to somebody else? So if you’re feeling like you don’t know why you’re bothering, you’re bothering because you’re going to make things better for someone by just the joy of your work and the joy they get out of it. We did in. The midst of that conversation come up with another conversation, which we’ll just touch on because I think we’re gonna do a whole nother podcast. And that is the fact that sometimes you do artwork that makes people upset or mad or pushes their perception of things. And this usually spearheads innovation. We’ve talked about the Expressionists and the Impressionists and and all these. People a lot lately, but they. A lot of times really pushed the idea of art to shopping. His urinal. You know, it’s like, oh, that’s yeah, this porcelain thing sitting on a stand in a art gallery. And people were just infuriated. I mean, what he was doing was really pushing people to think beyond what they thought was. Proper and sometimes. 

Brett: 

It made people think, yeah, yeah. 

Sage: 

Yes, sometimes art is needed in order to push people’s ideas, and it’s not going to make them happy. 

Brett: 

It’s what changes minds, yeah. 

Sage: 

Right. So you are considering the audience at that point as well, but you’re considering pushing them. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, that’s true. 

Sage: 

Innovation can be hard and can push people away and some art can be. Alienating a lot of art that’s done for social change is made to make people uncomfortable. So that they. Do stop and think about it deeper than going by. Pretty picture. Nice sculpture. 

Brett: 

Something to get your attention that aspires to be different. They challenge boundaries. 

Sage: 

Yeah, but if you’re going to be innovative and you’re going to upset, frustrate and rage, push your. Audience minds that’s intention. If that’s your intention, then you are speaking to your audience and you are thinking about your audience, offering them a different view, even if it’s upsetting to get them to see the world differently and to hopefully enact change or even just change their own behavior again, still trying to make the world better. I guess that brings to the question which we’ve kind of touched on, but when should the? Audience dictate our work. When should we let the market tell us what to do? When should we let the general audience or society determine our work? And I think in a lot of ways, hopefully it won’t. That’s like kind of the almost knee jerk reaction. They shouldn’t tell us what to do. We’re artists. But sometimes you do want to let the audience dictate what you make because you want to. I heard you’ve got to feed them what they want in order to get them to the point where they’re paying attention to you. You know, so if you wanna make social change, for instance, you’re gonna have to get their attention first, you know, before you can probably feed them something that may not be that comfortable or maybe hard for them to contemplate or ask for changes that may be hard for them to do. So at that point, I think, yeah, you might. Be needing to let the audience dictate what you do in order to get the end result that you want, and then there’s other times when your work is actually fed by the audience. There are times where the audience is part of the decision making, like Christy Friesen. I interviewed her on episode 5. She does a lot of online. Interactive classes and chats and that kinds of things with her audience. So what she makes with them for them is a lot based on what it is that. They want what? It is that they are leaning towards the things that they enjoy. She makes what she wants and then says, hey guys, you wanna make. But she started by developing a particular style that was fairly easy to emulate in terms of skill levels, but is intricate enough for her to continue to have class after class that she can show them so she does read her audience. She does feedback to her audience, which she believes that they want. She also does. Her own work. Both for them and separately. So I think when you do have something that you want the audience to tell you, you know what kind of classes do you want? What kind of tutorials do you want? What kind of custom work do you want me to have available then? In those cases I think you do want to listen to your audience in cartoons you have two audiences, right? Well, maybe 3 audiences. Yeah, the audiences watches the show. And then you have the advertisers and the advertisers dictate to the executives and all the higher ups what it is you guys need to be. Making right. 

Speaker 4 

You could. 

Brett: 

That way, yeah, it depends on, you know, the studio itself and how much they listen to the advertisers. But yeah, it comes down to money and what will make it and what won’t. 

Sage: 

Yeah, and we’re lucky as artists, most of the time, we don’t have to deal with the kind of multi level audience. But sometimes we do like if you want to be in a particular show, you have to get juried in like the show I did in Atlanta. Every year you had to send in your work and compete with other people who are trying to get in the show as well. So you have to send them the. Type of work and I I know I would make at least two or three pieces. That I knew would feed to that jury. There’s only this jury would love to see this kind of work. It’s a little different than I’ve been doing last year. It’s definitely different than everything else that I’ve been seeing brought to this show, and I did that to make sure that I stood out and kind of guarantee myself a position and a booth at that show. So that’s a multi level thing because it’s not just the market that you’re going to sell to when you get there, but the people are going to decide whether you get to get there in the first place. Now, if you don’t let the audience dictate what you’re doing and you just do whatever you want, there are times that you’re gonna put something out there and the audience that you think is your audience. Yeah, doesn’t like what you. 

Brett: 

Do could hurt motivation a little bit? 

Sage: 

Yeah, but if. 

Brett: 

It’s the drive is strong enough to want to do it and it brings you enough joy. Then you will. Keep doing it, yeah. But you know, no one likes to share a part of themselves. And have someone say Boo. Yeah, you know, and so you don’t want to share anything too, I guess in. A way too intimate. 

Sage: 

But some people do. Some people like share everything that they do. Like they record the. Process of making things all the time. They record all the messy stuff, even you know, and sometimes I think, you know, there’s kind of like a loss of mystery. You can see how they made it and like that’s how they made it versus, like, just staring at something and wondering going. How did you do that? 

Brett: 

It’s more magical, right? And maybe that’s a romantic way of thinking, but I I think life should have romance and should have some mystery to it does have mystery, you know, even even when we figure things out, it’s still a mystery in some in some way. 

Sage: 

It does. It always does, Mr. There’s still aspects, yeah. 

Brett: 

In some ways, you could always look at, you know. 

Sage: 

Yeah, but there definitely is something to be said for the more you share with people, the more your audience gets to know you, the more likely they are to buy and purchase and support. Personally, I’ve had that experience that would go to my intention at the time when I was a working artist, was to pay my bill. And so I did find that when I was at a show like cause I did, I did a lot of these shows where you would just mail in your work and they would hang it for you and then send you whatever you made and send your work back to you. And those are great because you didn’t have to travel, you didn’t have to put in all the expenses of going to the show. But when I didn’t go to the show. I probably sold on average probably 25% of what I sent when I was at the show. I sold out at a lot of my. Shows and what I mean by being at the shows I was there and I was available and I was present. I was doing classes. I was on panels. I had a booth where people that talked to me. One of those things was part of the time that I was there that weekend and doing the classes or doing presentations on panels was definitely the best because people got to know me because I got to talk about what I did and why I did it. 

Brett: 

And not all artists are like that. You shared yourself and people respond to that. 

Sage: 

Yeah, yeah. 

Brett: 

You also probably share stories about why you created the art or. 

Sage: 

Yeah, a lot of the stuff I did was usually teaching. That’s the number one thing I did, but I did do panels where I would talk about my process or what I did. For the other things that I do, so a lot of times I’d end up on panels for my publication efforts or my event organizing or whatnot cause used to organize art shows. So I would be on panels for that kind of thing too, but the better people get to know you, the more they feel like your friend of theirs. It adds a dimension to the work when they go. I remember her from this class or remember her from this talk or. They would buy the art because it meant more to them and had more significance because they got to know the artist. Now, I’m not saying that in order to get ahead on social media, you have to show your process or whatnot. I I don’t because #1 is. Of time. It’s hard to do everything that I want to do as it is, so I choose not to do that, but also my intention, my purpose, my end goals are not to sell, that is to promote aspects to making art or creativity or whatnot. I don’t need to show my process in order to do the things I want to do. Now if you’re selling. Artist. It does kind. Of help if you are showing process that people get to know you and what you do because all kinds of people just put up their images of their work and that’s pretty common. The people who show you the behind. The scenes stuff you. Get to understand what they’re doing and processes and the tools and the materials. And so when you look at the work you see not just the image, but you see the process. Behind it because you’ve seen examples of it through reels on Instagram or reels on Facebook or whatever. 

Brett: 

We have such an intrigue with how things are done. We’re shown how to do so many so so, so many things that that’s just the norm now. So I don’t think people want as much illusion. My dad loves this movie, the War of the Worlds, you know, and everyone talks about how they were models, the alien spaceships that came in. They’re just hanging on strings, you know, and if you watch it in like 4K, you can see the screens, the old one. 

Sage: 

You’re talking about old war. Of the world, you. Didn’t mention when was that? 

Brett: 

I’m sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there was. 

Sage: 

What was that film? 

Brett: 

I forgot that there’s the Tom Cruise version. I’m talking about the the original 1. From the 1950s. He he doesn’t want to see the documentaries on how something. Made he doesn’t want to see the artist process. He just wants to be taken away on a journey and that’s what entertainment is to him. 

Sage: 

Right. Right. It was a really interesting viewpoint on the episode on, hey, I art that my friend Jim Brown was saying cuz I had been talking about a I will never be able to have the history that real people have and that. All the marks that are made on a canvas are made by a person and you know the how that adds to the art and he said. I don’t care about. That, and I’m like, oh, yeah, some people. So some people don’t care about all that background. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. Some people just want to have a pretty image or an impressive image or something that makes them happy and that’s. All they want out of it. 

Brett: 

Or that fulfills a purpose or yeah. 

Sage: 

Yeah, yeah, regardless of how it became what it became like, most of us buy our clothes and never think about how does someone make this pattern and how does someone print this out and and cut it and sew it. And you know, we don’t think about. That stuff, unless it ends up in. The news that it. Was child labor or something like that? But yeah, most of the time we don’t care. We just buy these things. Oh, it’s pretty like that. It’s just that we don’t. Think beyond that. We don’t need to know more than that. Yeah, we don’t need to know. How it was. Made, but if we’re showing how we make art. Then people are interested in that. So yeah, some people just don’t want to know. 

Brett: 

Yeah, I think. It’s a I think it’s a phenomenon now people just enjoy that. Want to see? 

Sage: 

More so, it could be a thing for your audience to know more than just what your work looks like. But to know how it’s made, why you made it where your inspiration came from, where your materials came from, so it could be a thing to give them that additional dimension. So but yeah, so we have traveled around all kinds of subjects and I think we had other ones that we discussed, but I think we’re gonna just have to close this up cuz it’s a big. 

Brett: 

Yeah, it always just builds and builds. And there’s always more to say. About this stuff. 

Sage: 

I know it’s crazy. The subjects that we talk about there is so much more to be discussed beyond what these short, you know, half an hour, 45 minute discussion. So if you are enjoying this, you should definitely take some of this information and go talk to your artist friends. If you have a Guild, bring some of the subject matter to the Guild and get a conversation going and see what other people think cause the points of view that we’re giving you. I mean, we do go and we research stuff. We try to bring in information outside of our own experience, but it is a lot of our opinion. And our viewpoints. So if you have other things you know definitely continue the conversation and see what else you can find out. And if something is peaked, your interest? Delve into it. I think these are really important conversations that go beyond just you listening to us, which is fantastic. I love that. You’re here, but the various aspects of this it just can go on and on. And if you have an interest in it, I think it will really inform your artwork and your journey as an artist to delve into these things deeper. So that said, thank you, Brett, again for joining me and for not cracking me up. 

Brett: 

You’re welcome. 

Sage: 

Too often. Because sometimes we do this. And we record for like. Two hours or three hours. 

Speaker 4 

Yeah, I think it’s been about two hours, right? 

Sage: 

And then I have to edit it down to. Something that’s manageable but but yeah. 

Brett: 

That’s true. 

Sage: 

Thank you. For coming back and join us again on this. And if you want to give me any feedback on any of the things that we’re talking about, definitely send me an e-mail. Send me a voice message. You can get that on the sagearts.com website on the contact page. Find a form. Error for the e-mail or button for the voice messages and then you can also join us on social media both on Instagram and Facebook. Both are listed under the Sage Arts Podcast. All these are also LinkedIn. The show notes, and if you find what I’m doing is valuable and you want to give back, you’re welcome to do so on the homepage as the sagearts.com and also in the show. There are links to the buy me a coffee page, the PayPal don’t. Motion button. You can also buy stickers or buy some polymer books or magazines that also help support this podcast. You can get those stickers and publications at 10th musearts.com that’s 10th musearts.com. So that said, we are going to leave you with those thoughts unless you have any last things to say. 

Brett: 

I don’t really have anything to say except happy finding your audience. Get out there and and have fun finding your. 

Sage: 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. 

Brett: 

Do your thing. 

Sage: 

All right. Thank you so much for joining me. Please do remember to feed your muse find innovative and fun and interesting things to feed your muse with. Be true to your weirdness, and we’ll see you again next time on the stage arts pode.