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How do you feel about critique? Do you welcome it? Do you avoid it? What does or would the purpose of critique be in your artistic process assuming you would want to take advantage of all the wonderful things it can do for you?
Sound serious? Well, we’re not! There is a ton of fun and silliness to be had around this sometimes scary subject.
Since Brett and I have been critiquing and being critiqued all through our lives, and since we both love it for various reasons, I thought we’d do this one together. We’ll show you that it’s not about growing a thick skin so much as seeing it and giving it with an eye to the compassionate treasure it can be. We’ll go over the pros and cons of the process and give you some steps and structure for both giving and receiving critique as well as talk about where to find truly supportive and compassionate critique partners.
So grab a cup of cozy comfort and settle in for this informative chat full of stories, mindset tweaking, and more than an occasional guffaw.
Contact my guest:
https://www.instagram.com/brett.varon/
CONTACT SAGE
Send me your thoughts, question, queries or criticisms… email Sage via the contact form or send a voice mail (use the red button, bottom right) on the show website: http://thesagearts.com/contact/
And join Sage on social media:
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SUPPORT THIS PODCAST
Feel inclined to contribute to the financial support of this project? Buy me a coffee!
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thesagearts
“
And…. as promised the Design Elments & Principles checklist mentioned in this episode:
CREDITS:
Cover design by Sage; Illustration by Olga Kostenko
Music by Playsound
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Transcript
Transcription (AI transcribed, unedited. Please excuse the copious errors.)
Ep013 23-0303 Critique wBVaron
Sage:
Why are you laughing at me? Tell me such a hard time. Let’s get serious.
Brett Varon:
After restart. Yeah, yeah. OK, so it’s quiet.
Sage:
Hi all my. Lovely creative friends. Thank you for joining me again. You are the. Sage Arts podcast I’m sage your host, and I am here today with my favorite guest co-host Brett Barron.
Brett Varon:
Ohh stop. That’s nice.
Sage:
Are my favorite.
Brett Varon:
Well, thank you. You’re my favorite, too. You’re my favorite host.
Sage:
Right hear only those.
Brett Varon:
Well, you’re my only host, actually, but I don’t. I don’t do podcasts too often.
Sage:
So thank you, Brett and I are in the podcasting room together this time, which we weren’t last time because we kept having technical difficulties. So we’re going to try, hopefully we’ve got them cleared up. So we’re in the podcast room. Together on a. Late evening, we’re about to bring something to. Drink would it? Would you grab?
Brett Varon:
Yeah, I just have. I have faith tonight.
Sage:
Are you? In some comments.
Brett Varon:
The bread and some coffee and some.
Sage:
So coffee for you and I have a weird thing. I’ve got creative with my drinks. It’s apple cider actually, not with like, the spices and stuff. Just apple cider and black cherry juice and ginger.
Brett Varon:
You put ginger in there.
Sage:
I put ginger in there.
Brett Varon:
I will say your drink is way more interesting than mine.
Sage:
We got some full offense.
Brett Varon:
Coffee and water. It sounds like you know I’m in a prison or something.
Sage:
So yes, we’ve got our our beverages here and the dogs aren’t bothering us like the moment we’ll see.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, the first event.
Sage:
We’ll see how that goes. So we’re going to get into a discussion today about the art of critique, both how to give it, how to receive it, consideration for why you want to be doing that for yourself and for other. But before we get into that. It’s a little bit of housekeeping. First I want to shout out to living meals. Who bought me a handful of coffees and also left me a beautiful note saying she loves the podcast. That is thoughtful, challenging and entertaining company. While in the studio. So I’m so excited to hear that cause that’s exactly what I’m after. Working on artwork can be a very isolating experience in something like this, where we’re having conversations about the very things that you think about or maybe haven’t thought about, but are happy to be thinking about now that you feel like you have company in the room with you while you’re working. And I think it can keep you motivated and keep you energized and. Working away. So thank you so much, Libby, for sending that note and for the. Please if you would like to send me a comment or give back through a donation or tell me what you want to hear, this you’re not hearing or anything else at all, go to thesagearts.com. There’s a contact page there you can reach out to me by e-mail or with a little voice message button that’s there, or stay on home page and scroll halfway down to find the buy me a coffee and PayPal donation buttons. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you for giving back when you can. OK, so let’s get into our conversation for today. There’s probably a lot of questions you could ask yourself in terms of the conversation. We’re going to have, but I think the primary one is how do you feel about critique? Do you welcome it? Do you avoid it? Also, what does or would the purpose of critique be in your artistic process, assuming you would want to take advantage of all the wonderful things it can do for you? Brett and I decided to get together on this one. Because both of us have had a lot of experience critiquing and being critiqued, we’ll go over the pros and cons of the practice as well as some structure for both giving and receiving critique, and where you might find truly supportive critique partners. But let’s first talk about what critique is. A critique is about either helping someone understand their work from your point of view so that they can take that information and improve upon or ignore it, or at least have it in the. Back of their mind. But there’s also critique that can be used for you to help you understand artwork and have you not just have a better appreciation. Of art and the artwork that you’re exposed to. But to be able. To look at. Your own work with a critical eye and to be able to help. You self critique. So we’d like to talk about all those things. I’m not exactly sure what direction it’s going to go in. I made some. Notes, but made no notes. And so a lot of this is going to be a little organic.
Brett Varon:
Be in the moment and see what comes out. Here, so yes.
Sage:
So, both Brett and I have been to art school. We both went to Long Beach State for art at the same time and I never saw each other at one time.
Brett Varon:
Yeah. One time. Yeah, yeah.
Sage:
I was in the Fine Arts department.
Brett Varon:
I was in. Fine Arts as well, yeah, yeah.
Sage:
Which is maybe not all. About critiquing, but it is a constant thing. Doing and receiving throughout your Fine Arts classes and then you went to Cal Arts after that, which you focus more on animation, right? And again into critiquing, giving, and receiving constantly, constantly. And then I went on for my masters in writing and. That is also all about. Critiquing, it’s been a nonstop thing in our lives. And then now we both ended up in jobs where we have to do this as well. I was an editor constantly looking at people’s work and evaluating it. And then in your job, Brett, as an animation director, even when you’re storyboard artist, I’m sure. You did this. You well, you. Received a lot of critique. As a storyboard artist.
Brett Varon:
Always, Sir.
Sage:
But as a director, you give a lot of critique on the work as well.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, it’s part of the job.
Sage:
So we’ve had a lot of experience on both sides of being critiqued and also giving critique the approach to critique is about having an eye to helping them or you move forward so. So the first things I wanted to say about critiquing was that you need to realize that your critique of someone else or even yourself. Can be very. It can stop someone in their tracks. It can literally stop someone from pursuing a creative path if they get a lot of really negative critiques. And I think that’s extremely sad. I think everybody not only has the rights to have a creative outlet, but is almost a necessary part of being human, is to have some kind of creative outlet, something where you can put some of yourself. In the world, so keep in mind whenever you’re critiquing, even when you’re reviewing products or anything, just keep in mind how this is affecting another person, yeah.
Brett Varon:
And be nice, cause it’s it’s fragile. You know the creative process, you know?
Sage:
The ego. But it’s the purpose. Of critique is really to help, and if you keep that mindset, then when you’re giving it, it makes it a lot easier to find the right words to find the type of commentary that is going to be helpful. I mean, it can be scary obviously, but.
Brett Varon:
Oh it. Can be scary. From the wrong person, yeah.
Sage:
That’s true. I just don’t want. Anyone to look at it as solely like I’m going to be told. What’s wrong, you know. And if we as a community as artists are supporting each other, we’re going to be looking at it in terms of how it does help and support. Yeah, the last thing. We want to do is push people away from the creative focus. So with that in mind. Maybe we should start with critique based. On what we get out of it for our. Selves both of us learned the value of critique in school and in our jobs. I personally love critique. I actually love getting criticism because every time someone tells me that something can be done better, I have the opportunity to work on that. Even though sometimes when you think you’ve done really well and you’re like very proud of something, then someone knocks it down. And this is kind of like sad and you you cry for mom and you you dig into the ice cream. But The thing is, is that if you’re not getting critiqued, if you’re not getting those kind of commentaries, both with what works and what doesn’t work, then you aren’t in a position to improve beyond your own opinion. So let’s talk about ways to look at your own work and to evaluate other people’s work. Just for your own purposes, not to be. Vocalizing that critique to the actual artist. So some of the notes that we made, some of the stuff that I was finding it is to one look at a piece. Of artwork and. Describe it to yourself like you’re describing it to. A blind person. The reason you want to do that is because it will force you to look. At it in a. Very detailed way.
Brett Varon:
An objective way, yeah.
Sage:
And in a far more objective way. Than just you. Oh, that’s pretty. Or that’s ugly or. That’s not my kind of thing.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, without without opinion. So I see a boat. I see an ocean. I see a blue sky, you know.
Sage:
And like, oh wait, there’s a little person. Over on the hill, there and.
Brett Varon:
Sounds like a very, very boring. Painting at this point. But a familiar one. Yeah, but it also.
Sage:
Could be really interesting depending on how they did it, you know.
Brett Varon:
That’s true, of course. Yeah, that’s true.
Sage:
And so if you are online and something stands out to you and you really like a piece or you really hate a piece, even I think it can be even more important to take a piece that. You really don’t like and it. Go through this process or if you stop and describe it. To yourself, at first, you know like. What are the details that stand out? What’s significant? What do you think the artist was trying to focus on those kinds of things, so you go through and you just? Right. And then secondly, you analyze, you do try to determine what the artist did like their use of design elements, what is their color palette? What is their use of line? Did they emphasize texture or did they emphasize shape forms? What size is this thing you know? How big is it and why did they choose that? So stopping and looking at the design elements to the extent that you know and understand them. And also help you appreciate what they did. And then third, an interpretation, how does it make you feel? How do you read it? What is it that you see in it? What’s the story, what’s the focus? What’s the intent? And then an evaluation. Does the work. Communicate an idea, a feeling, a principle, something that would benefit you or other people. So if you can hit all those four points you describe it, you analyze its design and visual.
Brett Varon:
Elements components, yeah.
Sage:
You interpret how does it make you feel? What do you think this is your opinion and then evaluate and try to think what is the value of this piece to you or the. So I just spoke about this in terms of looking at other peoples, but also remember you do this with your own work, you know, especially the first couple of steps, the description and analysis of your own work can really help you see things and what you’re doing that you would not have seen before, you know and it might help with your work if it’s something you can put. Away for a little while. And then you can pull it out and see. It in it, yeah. And have a fresher viewpoint and then and. Is it how did you use the design elements? What is the composition? Where does the eye flow? Does it have a space to rest? Is there a focus point going through a checklist? In fact, I will post a checklist that I have for those folks who have followed me for a while. If you were part. Of the virtual art box membership. You have this checklist, but it goes through. A bunch of the design elements. I use it all the time when I’m looking at something and trying. To figure out. What didn’t work because you can know all. Of these design terms but a. Lot of times we forget.
Brett Varon:
The spirit of. It gets lost in the in the process, things cannot really have impact because. Of that, yeah, yeah.
Sage:
They’re back there in the back. Of their minds. Or or.
Brett Varon:
Like what’s going on?
Sage:
It’s very instinctual for us, but when something doesn’t work, it’s sometimes hard to identify until you you can actually like go through this. So I have a whole list and I will post it on Instagram and Facebook. So you can use that as an analysis. Then the interpretation which is really the how does your own. Work make you feel when you see it.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, sometimes it will just work for some reason. I just. Don’t understand like. I just, it just feels right.
Sage:
Love it.
Brett Varon:
It just you know, that’s that’s what. It is, and other times it’ll. It’ll be, you know, a little more clunky or whatever.
Sage:
And and that’s where these steps could really help you.
Brett Varon:
Yeah. Nice sense, yeah.
Sage:
And as a self in a self critique. So the idea of using this kind of critique, it can give you the opportunity to kind of change of the process through which you. Critique your own work. Like I think a lot of us we. Do the work and. Then we like it or we don’t like it. And we set it. Aside or we do the work and we don’t like it. So we keep messing with it. We try something else, try something else, try something else. Instead of stopping and really looking and analyzing. What are the? Particulars that we’ve done.
Brett Varon:
Ohh yeah yeah, to really really slow down and look at it somewhat objectively, see what’s working and what’s not by going through a deliberate process, right? That is something that I could do more of, I think. Yeah, I think that.
Sage:
Bet most of us. Could do more of that.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, I mean I I do it with work. I do it with, you know, my professional work that I want it to. Be you know the absolute best that it can be in the time that I get to do it, you know, so it’s a lot of investment there with the whole critiquing process. You know, we’re not losing the fund in the in the spirit of it, that’s always my main focus. But with my own personal work. Yeah, I could. Stop and consider more of a criteria that you’re talking about. And slow down.
Sage:
Take a closer look.
Brett Varon:
In the past, you. Know I I might be more one to just do it and if it something’s not working or it didn’t feel right, I put it aside and I just do something else or something else like. Kid or or do what feels good. For the next thing.
Sage:
So you might just work through it like keep doing and do it until you find the right way. But you know why you went from this first thing that wasn’t so good till you got something that you liked. I mean, do you learn from? I mean, we always learn from doing the process, right? But would would you learn in any concrete way? That you can like take that information to the next thing that you do and be like, OK, I’ve gotta remember, I have a tendency to not pay attention to my color combinations or really try to compliment them or I tend not to look at the values in my piece.
Brett Varon:
So you’re saying that’s what I do is that you’re giving me a cheque right now.
Sage:
Yeah, absolutely.
Brett Varon:
So you’ve been. Waiting for this moment.
Sage:
I’m waiting to talk to you about. Your values and you sprung it on me.
Brett Varon:
Now, you didn’t crush me so that that’s good.
Sage:
Yeah, no. Yeah, but you can do something over and over again till you get it right and that works. And I think a lot of us do do that. But if you do it and then you can look at the work with a critical eye with this kind of considerate criticism of yourself that you have the opportunity to identify what didn’t work and what does work and what to keep and what not to keep. And then you mentally would have, I would think. That in your mind the next time you go to do something similar.
Brett Varon:
Making those conscious choices, you know, along with going with the flow and letting go at the same time so you know you do one part of the process which is just pour it all out and then the next part go through this. Self criticism, sort of moment and. Redo it with those things in mind, or go back into the same piece and contribute those things. Or maybe if you start doing it enough, it comes a little more unconsciously.
Sage:
Well, yeah. And that’s the thing about doing things over and over again. You do want to do things over and over again because you.
Brett Varon:
You do.
Sage:
Will learn them. Intuitively, what you should. Or should not be doing. But sometimes if we can step back and. Look at something critically. We’ll have a more concrete idea of what we should do or not do until it becomes automatic, and then you won’t have. To think about anymore.
Brett Varon:
It and it takes time and that’s where the practice and the commitment of doing things over and over and over and. You know, when I got to college, that’s when I started really learning about design, you know, and all these things you’re talking about this list of things.
Speaker
Right.
Brett Varon:
I had learned about him before, but I it was like I didn’t drink the water. I was. Like I don’t know. I just want to draw. And I just want to express myself. That was my. Drive was so yeah, when I got. To college, I just great design teacher. And he taught these basics of design that it felt like brand new to me and to a degree it probably was when we’re in. A learning process. Certain things don’t get in until someone says it just right. Are you ready to hear? But really what it is, it’s like you see the value in it like. Once I saw the value in what my design teacher was teaching, it just blew me away. I was driving in the car and looking at everything completely different.
Sage:
Yeah. Is that great?
Brett Varon:
Yeah, that was. I remember driving in through the mountain and just looking how, you know, the telephone poles were leading me on high to the, you know, to the, I mean, everyone notices that as a kid.
Sage:
The rising flying, yeah.
Brett Varon:
But now I understood like that concept is everywhere. How it the way a leaf is designed, it’s leading your eye kind of put me in awe of nature. But the fact that I could have a a list of criteria to recreate that consciously, it was just like one of my I blew my blew my mind and actually had a little hard time working because I was. So conscious of it for. A little while I kept doing and redoing and doing and redoing and nothing was ever you know.
Sage:
Right, yeah.
Brett Varon:
Good enough. I was just learning this new skill. Yeah, in a way, I was very intuitive artist. Not that my stuff was bad, but I look at it now and I think, well, true like that, like, I wasn’t conscious of so many things.
Sage:
Sure. Yeah.
Brett Varon:
And I applied to. Long Beach state newspaper. As a cartoonist, they assign me something they wanted. Some like beach theme because it’s Long Beach state, you know, in California I did something with the ocean and palm trees in the sun, thinking that she was gonna be really excited by what? I did, you know, because I was. Really excited. I was like, look, I’m apply any design ethic or any graphic idea to it. She gave me, you know, just the way she said it. It just really hit me and it it made me feel really bad about myself.
Speaker
So she gave.
Sage:
Me a rather negative.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, it was. Yeah, and I wish I could remember, cause I you know, it’s one of. Those things you’ve. You remember for a while, but then you learned to block it.
Sage:
Remember, you remember the emotion cause it.
Brett Varon:
Out because hurt. And I remember getting very upset and very emotional, you know?
Sage:
Yeah, yeah.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, it woke me up to a lot that I didn’t know, but I. I really wanted to know whatever it was I wasn’t doing. It took time. To get there. Though like I I think I.
Speaker
Sure, Sir.
Brett Varon:
I said I’m never gonna go to a. Newspaper again, it’s. Just like anything, you know that that part is done.
Speaker
I’m just going to.
Sage:
Go to TV.
Brett Varon:
I I yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s for the, that’s for it.
Sage:
That’s where you. Mean that’s where you ended up in, yeah.
Brett Varon:
Work from now, but.
Sage:
Yeah. So yeah, it can. Be super hard to take critique, especially when you had no idea that the work was unaccomplished.
Brett Varon:
I took it in.
Sage:
As it was.
Brett Varon:
I took it incredibly personal because it was me that did that, but the skills were a very undeveloped part of me at the time and I came around when I got to art school, specifically the animation school. That’s when I read. We paid attention and I would talk to people about it. Everybody was talking to one person and they said he said, oh, you know, she was a student too.
Sage:
I’m kicking out about design.
Brett Varon:
She says. Yeah, you definitely had your first year of design class with Bob, Bob, Winquist and just a really positive guy. Talk about giving critique. He had a great approach. He would have everyone put it up and he would definitely find the positive things. About it, his catch phrase was wonderful. It was full of encouragement, you know, and it made us all feel that the reason we were there in the 1st place is there was, you know, I guess talent there that, you know, someone was passionate about. Or something. Or they just wanted their money one. Of the two. He encouraged that spirit and I really responded to that well. And he told us about the last guy who ran the department, the last design teacher would literally tear stuff off the wall if it didn’t work, he would light it on fire. If it didn’t work.
Sage:
Oh geez.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, yeah.
Sage:
OK, these are the things not to do.
Brett Varon:
This is, yeah, and this. Old school, like you know, like, like Wake Up, Snap out of it. But it was so brutal. It’s like in the army. They tear you all the way down to build you back up and you know that has worked on people. It’s not completely invalid, you know.
Sage:
It does make an impression. It’s not that it does make an impression, and those people probably who had their piece of burn probably never forgot whatever lesson he was trying to teach them. But it’s such a dangerous position to put somebody in because you don’t know if they’re ever gonna come back from.
Brett Varon:
But this one is with Bob. Everything was wonderful. So if everything was wonderful like, well, how good can it be? You wanted some evaluation but.
Speaker
Well, when you say something like.
Sage:
And you say it all the time, it loses its meaning. It doesn’t give the person any information. It’s great to be encouraging, you know, obviously.
Brett Varon:
Well, here. Well, here’s the thing. I I went off and did my first animation job and came back the next year to visit Bob and I told him how I hated it and I had to do in between and it just wasn’t who I was. And you know. And he goes, that’s wonderful.
Sage:
And then you’re like.
Brett Varon:
It was perfect. It was. He was like, that’s wonderful. You’re having that experience. And I see, I understand now. But the of course the experience wasn’t pleasant, but right it was valuable to me, and it was also giving me skills. And I have an understanding of, you know, all the layers of animation specifically and I’m really passionate about that.
Sage:
So I think one of the cool things about what you were saying, you learn things in school and suddenly you saw things differently. And I think critiquing can do that as well. Now obviously you learn something new and like oh wow. And you can learn through books. You can learn through classes. You can learn through podcasts. You can. Learn through whatever you know. But self teaching can be. Really dramatic and learning to critique what you do, the work that you’re making is one of those things that has really dramatic potential for you to see something that you hadn’t seen before, but yeah. The idea of learning to critique yourself or other people’s work is really a way of honing your eye and hopefully things that will become automatic. Like realizing that it’s out of balance because I put too many heavy, dark big objects on one side and now you start thinking I need to not put all these big dark heavy objects on one side.
Brett Varon:
Yeah. Undo, undo, undo.
Sage:
And luckily we can we have. Those options and many of our. Medium for face. But now that little. Piece of knowledge is in your brain and hopefully you will never look at a piece and be OK with things unbalanced in that way again. But if. Did not look critically at your work and recognize that you would not have had that knowledge as soon as you did because you stopped to evaluate your work and what you were doing, right?
Brett Varon:
Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
Sage:
I think specificity and critique is is. Also very important.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, those were the kinds of critiques we got from Bob. He would go to the things that he loved and say, oh, look at. This is wonderful how this is hitting my right to this circle. This circle is the focal point and everything else is directed right towards it and and then. And look at this variation of shape, variation of size, and he would go off about this stuff and it brought it more to all of our attention when he pointed it out instead of tearing something down.
Sage:
Right. Well, and that really. Gives you another tool for improving what you do, not just knowing what not to do, but what also.
Brett Varon:
Works that way, you know. You’re heading in the right direction and you learn from others when you hear these critiques.
Sage:
Yeah, well, learning how to critique will not only help find what you can improve in your work, find what does work. That kind of thing, but it helps you look at. Other people’s work and. Go beyond just the visceral reaction as to whether you like it. Or not stopping and thinking about some of the design elements and what their intention was or wondering. What the story? Is behind the work means that you got to spend more time with the piece of art. Think about how much time you put into. A piece of artwork and. How much you hope that people will? See the efforts. That’s gone into it, right. I think a whole.
Speaker
Another level of.
Sage:
Appreciation will occur for us. We’re on social media. I mean, I’m speaking kind of from my experience, but some of the conversations that I had made me think that. Most people get on there. Artists, we’re looking for ideas and we’re looking for inspiration, which is fantastic, but if you spend a little bit more time with things, it’s going to go beyond the basic reaction of or really. Like those colors?
Brett Varon:
Oh, I see what they’re doing. They’re they’re they’re doing this, this, this and that. And you’re like, you know, using that part of your mind that is assessing.
Sage:
And you could, I think you could learn a lot from that, that you can then take to the studio and and apply to your understanding of your own work. So there’s, I think there’s definitely a lot to be said for taking the time to critique other people’s work, to take your work. If you really want to put this into practice, just make it a point of every time you get online that you pick at least one piece and.
Brett Varon:
To stop on and.
Sage:
And just stop and really evaluate.
Brett Varon:
That’s why going to a gallery, an art gallery or a museum is so valuable because you that’s why there’s a bench there.
Sage:
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Brett Varon:
You can sit and stare at this huge painting. You know you can do a study of.
Sage:
Really. Take it in.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, take it in. Think about. What effect it has on you and why it works and the colors to the design to every last bit and when something’s really really amazing and great to me, you don’t even notice those things, cause they all just are there. But but you’re noticing is is whatever. I would think the intention of it is or the power of it is.
Sage:
And I think that’s an important part of critique is to say, what is the wholesale reaction that I have to? This does it make me feel happy, sad, energetic, inspired. And I think that’s a legitimate and important part of a.
Brett Varon:
And as an artist, you want people to be affected, to feel something, to react to something.
Sage:
Right. And to be able to look at the image as a whole and as the artist intended, the artist didn’t intend for you to sit there and go. How does my line? Work and separate.
Brett Varon:
Right.
Sage:
We are artists. Or we’re creative people who have an opportunity to learn something that will help us in our own work. So definitely the way you look at it for how would somebody? Anybody look at this and see and react to it, that’s a really, really important thing. And the idea is, is that you look at it for its potential to elicit a reaction of some sort, and determining what that reaction might be in a general sense is something helpful for an artist. If you’re trying to give them information, but if you’re just looking at it for your own appreciation, then it’s about you and it’s about how you react to it. And that was that. Part of the four items for critiquing for your own personal understanding, the interpretation, the third item, how does it make you feel? How do? You read it.
Brett Varon:
Oh, I see.
Sage:
They’re all really valid parts for critiquing for your own growth as an artist and as just an A person who appreciate.
Speaker
It’s art.
Sage:
When you are able to discuss art with another artist, if you want to assist them in finding more opportunities for improvement in their artwork and they’ve asked for it and I think that’s an important thing to remember, is that giving people critique for something that they haven’t. Asked for is. A problematic area.
Brett Varon:
It’s dangerous enough, of course.
Speaker
To say the least.
Sage:
Right. We often notice the problems. First, our brains are geared to finding out what’s wrong because we need to know.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, that’s true.
Sage:
If there’s going. To be danger. There’s going to be a.
Brett Varon:
Problem or well, they’re well, also, that’s part of design, right?
Sage:
Look for that.
Brett Varon:
They takes, you know, 5 circle. And if they’re all the same size except for one, and one is really small and you notice the one.
Sage:
You notice the one that’s. Right. I think the important point of that when your cheek something there are things that work and things that don’t work even if our eye immediately goes to the thing that doesn’t work. And that’s the thing we most want to tell them about. You need to tell them what works and what doesn’t work.
Brett Varon:
Right.
Sage:
And there’s something called the critique sandwich. So the idea is, is that if you’re going to offer. Somebody some information you tell them something positive about it and then you can offer them the areas for. And then you end up with. Another positive so. The way I prefer to do it is to acknowledge what works first, like oh, your piece is really inspiring. I love the colors. There’s lots of movement in it. However, I think there’s a little imbalance or the way these lines are used are a little too strong. And then you’ve given them the. Areas for improvement and then you come back and you tell. Them what the value of the work is like. Regardless, I see a lot of passion that comes out in the way you’ve rendered this particular subject, so it’s acknowledging what works, suggesting opportunities for improvement, and then acknowledging the value of the work. They have the information they need to improve it, but at the same time they want to know what is working and to feel that the effort that they’ve put into it has given some value to the to viewer and has some level of success.
Brett Varon:
Even if it’s uninformed. Yeah, like it’s a if it’s like, I don’t know how to say it, but like, it’s a baby talking. You know, they can’t enunciate. They don’t. The words, yet you know.
Sage:
They get, they get it.
Brett Varon:
That’s me. You know, the way I talk. Yeah, yeah, alright. But in in time. They grow that. And and just. It’s learning a visual language.
Sage:
Even if they don’t have all the parts they. Need for it. They spent the time to make it there.
Brett Varon:
Right. They wanted to do it, yeah.
Sage:
They wanted to do it and there is a courage and not just. Doing it, you know, every time you sit down to make something, you risk failure. So Congrats every single time you sit down to make something, you’re being courageous. To do that. But there’s even more courage in putting something out there where someone else can look at. It and judge it. That’s a scary thing. So if they put that out there where you can give them commentary. You’ve got to. Give them kudos just for having the courage to. Put that forth. So there’s a number of points that we made notes on in terms of insights that I think are really important. For instance, be attentive when you are going to critique and give someone insights you want to put the time in. So instead of looking at something for three seconds and then just rattling off a bunch of stuff.
Brett Varon:
This stuff takes time to really assess.
Sage:
You want to be fair in giving the work the time and then also don’t. Use lazy work.
Brett Varon:
It’s great. It’s interesting. Yeah, it’s wonderful. What’s this do you know?
Sage:
So that was funny. That you brought up that story. After we had researched this stuff, but. Sometimes you use those kinds of words because it’s a lead in to what you need to say like this is wonderful. This is really interesting, but at some point you need to. Get specific if all your critiques are this. Is really good. I love it so much. And it feels. Good to hear that. But if that’s all? The person’s hearing, they’re not learning anything.
Brett Varon:
We’re like. Oh my God, this is so good. Right, not that I hear that a lot, but I’m just saying that’s like the attitude of when someone farms over, over work, you know, it’s it’s like. But why is it good? Like when I look at someone’s work who’s really good, it takes me time to figure out if there’s anything I can offer it. Because everything. Is working because they’ve done such.
Sage:
A wonderful fun job.
Brett Varon:
If, Yep, you’re you’re bringing the whole image too.
Sage:
Which is.
Brett Varon:
Other with all the use of the design principles. We’re talking about, yeah.
Sage:
So yeah, you can use lazy words to lead in to like. Thank you for showing me your work. It’s really interesting and really loving. This it’s beautiful. Whatever and get like that, your use of line is really dramatic. That works so well for this particular subject. Point out the specifics in the design elements or even if you if. All you have to offer is your reaction to it. Then it could be. I really love the use of color. I really love the size. I love how you treated the. Edges, things that.
Brett Varon:
The line words in.
Sage:
They can kind of root. The ideas of what they can take from that to their next projects. And then another thing was be generous. Try to understand why the person made it. And like we’re saying early recognize the courage for them putting it forward. But think in terms of not judging their level of talent and their level of skill, but recognizing that they’re a human being, putting themselves out into the world. And to create a form and that it takes work time knowledge. There’s so many things that go into making some. Doing good that if it’s not all there, that’s fine. Doing the work.
Brett Varon:
Well, there’s that and you gotta respect the fact that everyone is on a journey and you can’t judge them because they are.
Sage:
One person’s at the beginning, one person’s in the middle. Yeah.
Brett Varon:
At the beginning of the person in the middle of the end, and some people are really headed again. They have a just a natural feeling, but sometimes those people actually kind of stay the same because they there’s nothing to push them further, you know?
Sage:
It’s successful at the beginning. They should know why do any. So just be generous to that person in terms of where they’re coming from, how much experience they’ve had, if you know or just think they’re a human being trying to do something that does take courage and and we should be kind, then what we. Say in regardless. And then another thing that came up a lot was trying to find your point of connection in the work so. Your initial connection is your initial reaction. You liked it? You didn’t like it? It’s beautiful. It’s ugly. It’s really dramatic. It tells me a story right off the bat. And you have those initial thoughts, but what is your personal connection to the piece? Do you see particular messages or images that really say something to you that do the color combinations really speak to you anything that this person is doing? Is there some kind of personal connection that you can? About that will let the artist know that you feel connected to the piece, cause I think that’s a real boost when someone says I feel connected.
Speaker
Or ohh I.
Sage:
Love Dragons and this particular dragon I just think is so wonderfully rendered. I feel like. I can be transported into another time and place whatever it is, so any kind of commentary that makes.
Brett Varon:
Some random or something yet.
Sage:
The artists know they made a connection for you through their. Work would be really, really helpful. For them to understand their market and their audience. That will also probably help. You in terms of. In any kind of criticism that you do have because they’re empty. More also decide whether you think the work is successful or not. Like did they succeed in the intention for this peace. Is there a clear story? Do you feel that there’s something to root your thoughts in or sink your teeth into, or whatever metaphor you want to use? If it feels money, if you feel like you’re not sure what direction it’s going? Or there just seems to be a lot of questions about what’s going on in the piece, then that might be a point for which you can offer a critique. Another thing that you can ask also did the artist use their tools and their techniques? Well, yeah, so this is technical. Like, did they look like they’ve mastered their medium? To the extent that they need to for what they’re trying to do, we don’t need to judge whether their skill level is the level of masters in that medium, even if they’re not skilled. With the material. They only need to master to the extent that they need to have control over it to say what they need to say, and I’m thinking in particular about like naive artists, the whole genre of naive art was based on people who were never educated in art. And they used the mediums in ways that were often almost childish, but they got to say what? They needed to say. They were able to paint the scenery outside their door. The town that they lived in, the children that they had. And they use the medium to the best ability that they had, but they only needed to know so much about it in order to represent these things in a real, powerful and emotive way.
Brett Varon:
Let me see. Yeah, there’s a value in there, yeah.
Sage:
I think yeah. And so, even though this comment about the technical aspects being part of what you want to judge and and you do you do need to look at what it is they were trying to accomplish and. How much skill level they need to have in order to accomplish what they were trying to do?
Brett Varon:
Did it work or didn’t it work?
Sage:
Yeah, it didn’t. It didn’t work or not.
Brett Varon:
Did it communicate?
Sage:
Yeah, yeah. Did they use it well for their intention? And then there’s also some comments about judging whether the art was original. Did they imitate others? That kind of thing? And although I think that is something that can be brought up if that is concern of the artist, I think it’s a little bit of a dangerous area to walk into to say oh. This looks like somebody else’s. Because I think if we push everybody to. Look like something that’s never been seen before. We’re just going to. Be doing the. The craziest, most unauthentic stuff, just trying to be different, and I already think that’s. The problem?
Brett Varon:
Yeah, well said. I agree. It’s just being different for the sake of being different because you have to be. Original If you’re yourself and you, we all have influences and we shouldn’t imitate somebody.
Sage:
Right.
Brett Varon:
But if there are influences in our work, from someone who we have admired and it just gets in there, just sort of subconsciously or even I guess, consciously and we do something with it, we take it farther, we make it our own.
Sage:
That’s totally valid. The particulars of this kind of judgment is that you can say something looks like somebody elses, but then there’s a Gray area there. At what point are they not imitating anymore? But they’ve made it their own. You know, over the years especially. Working on the magazines and. The blogs I got comments all the time about oh, this looks like somebody else’s work. Why are you posting it without giving them? Credit da da da. I remember this one piece. Someone made a brooch that was basically a doughnut. Very organically round, very kind of wobbly. And then there was different patches. Of polymer, different colors and different textures around the outside. Now this have been done over and over again by various other artists, but the person who wrote me had only ever seen it done by one other artist, so they thought this person was imitating that person because they used that particular shape. Now they may very well have seen that work by that artist took that particular shape and they went and did something very similar, but to me, I look at it on like the type of textures the the surface design. We’re so completely different than this other persons just because they made doughnut shapes doesn’t mean that they were imitating. I think they made it their own and so I think if you’re going to try to critique. Somebody and whether it’s? Original or whether it imitates it’s a it’s a muddy area. And I think it’s. An area that you have to be. Really careful if. You’re not really well versed on the. Type of work that you’re saying is being imitated. Then I think it’s probably not going to be super helpful. So just be careful if you’re saying, oh, that looks like somebody else’s.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, yeah.
Sage:
I would never want to push somebody from doing something that is their authentic mode of expression by saying it looks like somebody elses. You can’t do that.
Brett Varon:
Yeah. I mean, if something is really original and and someone’s imitating it, it’s really clear. Like I think of the artist live and girl, you see his. Work and it’s. Once you know his work that it’s his.
Sage:
That’s the style.
Brett Varon:
So if someone went and. Started doing it pretty much exactly like that. I’d be like, well, you’re imitating Evan Darrell. How are you going to evolve it? I mean, you shouldn’t just give someone styling.
Sage:
Well, here’s the thing.
Brett Varon:
Because there’s no. Spirit behind it is Ivan Earl Drew. The spirit he was.
Sage:
It’s the spirit behind it, so someone can try to imitate somebody else, but if it’s not their authentic voice, it’s not their spirit being.
Brett Varon:
It was.
Sage:
They’re not going to have that passion and drive to create something that is of themselves.
Brett Varon:
They’re not listening to the right part of themselves. They’re doing something outside of themselves and imitating it to look like they are creating something of value because someone else does it so well. But if you go on the journey yourself and learn how to self critique like you were talking about contact, what motivates you and how it’s going to come through you. That’s where you find your original. Way of evolving.
Sage:
Well, that’s The thing is like if you imitate somebody else and you try to just make what they’re making, you’ve not gone through the process of exploration. The process of trial and error, the failing.
Brett Varon:
Yeah, you understand them.
Sage:
Through which you learn things. That you will never be able to continue to make the kind of wonderful work that they’re making because that authentic spirit isn’t there and it shows, you know, I think the other area we really need to look at is not just how to give critique, but how to receive it.
Brett Varon:
It’s obvious.
Sage:
So how do you respond your critique, you know?
Brett Varon:
Very poorly, very bad always. It’s the worst thing. Ever. No, I’m. But I think that’s also a.
Sage:
Skill that to learn, you know, I mean, to be honest, I had a very hard time with positive critique for a long time.
Brett Varon:
It is. It is all seriousness. It is, yeah.
Sage:
Just really I didn’t know how to take it when people would tell me how wonderful my stuff was or something. It’s not like I hadn’t had those experiences before. I’ve had a lot of success both in art and writing, since I was a. Very small child. But I had a hard time accepting the positive. For some reason it’s easier. For me to accept the negative.
Brett Varon:
You didn’t feel good about your? Work maybe. And you expected to hear negative things.
Sage:
I think part of me doesn’t believe it when someone says you work is really wonderful cause I have that self critic constantly and also I was a very socially awkward person for most of my life and it was just hard when someone gives you a positive comment to take it graciously. So if people are saying your work is wonderful, we love what you do. And since your comment then. Say thank you so much. I really appreciate you letting me know I appreciate the acknowledgement. Just very simple answers. Now if somebody gives you a negative critique, that is where most people struggle. If somebody gives you a negative critique, says this doesn’t work and you didn’t know that it’s, it can be very hard because it feels very personal. We talked about that a little bit. Clear that if someone looks at your piece and says it’s not working, it feels like they’re telling you you’re not working because it’s.
Brett Varon:
Right.
Sage:
You you feel like this is me, literally putting myself out there. My heart, my soul, whatnot. My, my sweat, my tears.
Brett Varon:
With all of its limitations and.
Sage:
And everything and for someone. To tell you it doesn’t work that it needs. Improvement can be a really hard thing to do. But the thing to remember is that every time someone tells you something about your work, it’s an opportunity to find points of improvement. For you to see your work. A different way now, one thing to remember is that no matter what anyone says, you don’t have to take their criticism at face value. If they give you a comment that you just don’t believe is true, then ignore it. You’re gonna make a judgement call on the information that you received as to whether it’s useful for you or not. Some people might give you information that is beyond the point of what you’re trying to do. That they like. You’ll never be able. To sell this at these particular markets, it’s like, well, I don’t want to sell to those particular markets. You know you’ll never be able to get the general public to be on board with this kind of work. Well, I’m not painting this for the general public or I’m not sculpting this for the general public, so anything that you’re given in terms of criticism.
Speaker
Right.
Sage:
It’s your judgment call even the. Maybe you don’t believe when someone says you know I love the colors. You like these. Colors are really horrible. You can ignore those kind of comments too, but it’s really important in terms of what may be deemed as constructive criticism. But you’ll feel as negative criticism. It’s really important that you take the suggestions for improvements as opportunities and to. Only take the ones that are useful for you, for what you’re trying to do, and so if someone is giving you these kinds of comments that even if they heard, go ahead and eat the chocolate and the ice cream and cry. Into the pillow for. A few and get past. It because you’re being given a gift, you will never be able to find the things in your work that other people find.
Brett Varon:
Well, with the caveat of who it comes from, right? If it comes from someone who doesn’t understand what they’re saying and they’re saying it for maybe more emotional reason, then maybe you wouldn’t take that as profoundly.
Sage:
But that’s where you make the judgment as to whether the critique that you’re getting, the criticism that you’re getting is worth you taking a heart or not. So if it is coming from somebody who is just ill informed, like the example of somebody saying it would not work for the general public, well then that person is totally ignore. And what your intention is like if you’re making fantasy as paintings or fantasy as sculptures or whatnot, of course you’re not going to take it to an art show. That’s for more contemporary work, but if somebody judges it based on what they’re looking for at a contemporary show, they are completely missing the mark as to what you’re trying to do. Who your audience is. And so you can totally just set aside, ignore trash those thoughts. Just toss those comments. Yeah, you can. You can set those aside so, but that’s part of what you are doing. It’s as much an excavation as it is a building of your opportunities. You know, so just remember that people are going to give you their opinions. They’re just opinions. This is art. And if they don’t like your work, if you’re doing something that’s sincere and authentic. Then there’s a good chance that the person who doesn’t like your work is someone who’s not the audience that you are trying for. It is hard when anyone says I don’t like your work or I don’t like this aspect of your work or I don’t think it’s good enough, especially if it’s from someone that you look up to or that you need accolades from because they run a show or they are going to give you a job or whatnot. But yeah, those different views. Are going to allow you to see how your intended audience might see your work. And it’s going. To open up all kinds of wonderful. It really is. So if you can get past the personal kind of like bruises to your ego, that negative or lukewarm criticism can often have.
Brett Varon:
And if you want it from a specific person because you were saying is it a job or whatever, it could be that you are barking up the wrong tree and you should be looking for another venue or audience or I don’t know, maybe you’re doing something naturally that’s speaking to you, but just being directed towards the wrong place.
Sage:
The people who are seeing it may not be the right people that you need to see it, so that dovetails into the last part of the conversation was is where do you get critique? Them you should be a little cautious about who you get critique from. You want to have trusted friends and fellow artists that can help you look at your work in a new way, but there’s a danger with friends and family cause they all want. To tell you. How wonderful. You are right if they’re. Supportive, but find some trusted people that you can. Ask for help. I think your best source. Is fellow artists. People who work in the same medium as you, people who have a similar audience. So I worked in polymer at the beginning primarily selling to the science fiction fantasy convention scene because it was something that it was attached to and and was easy for me to get into and and to sell. I could sell a lot in that scene, and so there was a number of artists in the circuit that I was in that really did want to get more information. About their work. The advantage was is that we could talk about our work in terms of selling to that particular audience and be very specific about what we thought worked and what we thought wouldn’t work, which was super helpful for the potential sales. But it also just gave us a certain camaraderie and that we knew what each of us was going through with the hurdles that we. Add what we were up against in terms of the competition in sales and we were able to really support each other so we would get together about once a month, bring our latest work, especially the ones that we seem to be having problems either creating or selling and get the information from people who are going through the same experiences. That’s great. So if you have the opportunity to do that sometimes. You can find local groups, yeah. Seek it out, find meet up groups, co-ops, go to galleries, talk to people, start networking. There’s Facebook groups and Garry’s associations with people who are doing the same thing that you’re doing for the same audiences, and if you can get a group of those people together, that would. And if that’s not something that. You can do either because it’s just not. Available to you where? You’re at or you’re a little bit. More introverted than it’s comfortable for you to go out and. Network like. Just find some people who are also creatives that will understand what you need from a critique.
Brett Varon:
And they want to share and talk. And not all artists. Want to do? That some just want to be left alone.
Sage:
Right. But you want to find people that will be supportive of what you’re doing and that’s that’s the main thing that they’ll be supportive and understand that their primary thing is going to be looking to help you become a better artist and define your work more fulfilling and fulfill that version of success that you’ve determined for yourself. Right. Yeah, yeah. OK. So I think that kind of. Covers all the. Basis of the things that we wanted. To talk about. So if you have any thoughts about critique, if you have any experiences, if you don’t agree with some of the things that we’ve said, I would. Love to hear. From you you can send your comments and your criticism. Any questions that this might be you can send those to me via my website at www.thesagearts.com. Go to the contact page and use the e-mail form or you can also hit that little red button and leave me a voicemail.
Brett Varon:
Oh there will be criticisms
Sage:
You can also join me online on social media, on Instagram or Facebook. Both of them the pages are at the Sage Arts Podcast where I will list again the design lists that I promised to you. And as mentioned earlier, if you’re enjoying these episodes and find value in what I’m doing here, consider giving back. You can do that by going to the sagearts.com website. We’re halfway down homepage. You’ll find the buy me a copy. And PayPal donation buttons. So I was going to have Brett say goodbye. But he left. So Brett says goodbye. And thank you for listening to our silliness. I hope you feel more encouraged about critique, and we’ll look for it more often than maybe you did before because. All that is truly. A way to feed your muse. So do that be true to your weirdness and join me again. Next week on the stage. Arts podcast.
