Is evolution and change something you strive for in your art or do you aim for steady, predictable work maybe in hopes of steady predictable sales? There is no right or wrong answer to that question, but as you will hear in this conversation with veteran artist Kathleen Dustin, there are advantages as well as risks involved in changing up your art and evolving as an artist.
Come join Kathleen and I for a lively discussion on the subject as well as hearing stories of her creative journey and how the choices and risks that she took brought her a long, successful, and fulfilling artistic career.
Contact my guest:
Kathleen Dustin’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kathleendustin/
Kathleen Dustin’s website https://kathleendustin.com/shop/
–
Leave a COMMENT: http://thesagearts.com/episodes/
–
CONTACT SAGE
Email: http://thesagearts.com/contact/
And join Sage on social media:
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thesageartspodcast/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheSageArtsPodcast
–
GET WEEKLY PODCAST NOTICES & BONUS MATERIAL:
Newsletter goes out every Sunday after an new episode goes up!
–
SUPPORT THIS PODCAST
· Buy a STICKER! (Get 2 per order as of this release.)
· Buy polymer art books and magazines
–
CREDITS:
Cover design by Sage; Illustration by Olga Kostenko
Photo: Pod Purses by Kathleen Dustin
Music by Playsound
Transcript:
–AI transcribed, unedited. Please excuse the copious errors. —
Kathleen —
You don’t want to just jump around all the time, making totally different looking stuff that looks like what you saw online, or looks like what some teacher taught you. Some kind of personal thread is important.
Sage —
Hello all my ever changing ever exploring artists out there. Thank you for joining me on the Sage Arts podcast. This is sage. And I’m going to just do a really quick introduction because we have a somewhat lengthy interview, but it’s just such fantastic information. I couldn’t really find a lot of areas to cut down and cut out and leave you out of the conversation that I had with this wonderful artist I have for you today. But before we do get into that, I do have a little bit of an announcement. To me. I really, really rallied against doing this. I don’t want to be doing this, but I’m going to have to be taking a break from the podcast for a little while and I’m probably going to be out definitely for June, July, maybe even August, unfortunately. There’s just too. Much going on on, you know, in my life. The Puppy River had that surgery and is going to be going through physical therapy and for various complicated reasons Brett is not going to be able to help with that and then have other family members who need some things. And I just need to get back to my own work as well, including a poetry collection which I’ve been working on quietly for, like. For a year, and it’s gotten to a point where I feel like it just needs to get done. So hopefully during this time, I can manage that. And if I do, you’ll probably hear about that as well. So I’m going to take a break from the podcast in order to kind of get all that personal stuff straightened out, and it doesn’t mean I’m not gonna be working on it. So if you continue to have comments or things you want to tell me or things you want to request, you can. Write to me at thesagearts.com website on the contact page. I will still be checking in and involved in all the day-to-day stuff, just not actually producing so I can take more time. For all the other craziness where I have my life plus this summer, are you guys going places? Right. We’re doing some vacations, got some family get togethers. You know those kinds of things that are probably gonna keep you a little busy too. I mean, I’m hoping because I get a lot of comments from you all about how much you look forward to this and and what it does for you and keeping you motivated. So I apologize. I am going to have to take that time out. But go back and. Relisten to some of the older episodes, if you feel like you need a little creativity booster. But not. I also have vague notions of maybe doing some little videos I can put up on Instagram or something just to keep in touch, and because I’m going to miss you all, I really am not looking forward to not being on this side of the mic and having these conversations with you. But gotta take care of the family and the furries and all of that. So for those of you who donate on a monthly basis, I don’t seem to. Have a way to. Put that on hold. So if you want to halt that because I won’t be producing, I completely, absolutely understand. Don’t donate to this when I’m not producing. If you’re listening to this regularly anyways, if you want to donate cause you just start listening and you, you heard all these and you wanna throw some money at us to keep us going in the future. That’s. Down stick and if you do want to donate then you just go to the home page of the sagers.com. On these buttons halfway down the homepage or go to the show notes or description section of wherever you are listening to this podcast from. But for those of you with the monthly recurring donations, go ahead and either put it on hold or cancel. I’m not sure how it it works from your end, but write me if there’s any issues or you’re. Getting this notice later and the payments have already gone through and then get the newsletter go to the homepage of the sagearts.com website and just click that news and notices button. If you’re not getting the newsletter. Ready. So that way you’ll get a notice when the episodes are returning, and if I do any bonus things because I’m missing you, then you’ll know that those things are out cause I will send a newsletter out when there’s any news related to the podcast. For those want to be kept. Updated about River’s progress. I’ll post something on Instagram so you can, you know, see pictures of her cute little. Purple polka dotted cast. And just to let you know what’s going on, but basically her healing’s gone really well. The surgery went really well and the surgeon is really happy with her progress thus far, but she has another few months before she can resume her. Well, something like the level of energy she had before, but it’s like half of her puppy hood is going to be spent dealing with this poor. Thing, but in case go to the stage. Arts Podcast page on Instagram to get those and any other updates I might be doing in my little podcast, sabbatical or whatever. Because I’m at least really glad that I am going to leave you this summer with just an amazing interview with an amazing artist, I have interviewed just some of the most interesting and really prestigious hard working, experienced artist. But I don’t know if anyone I’ve interviewed so far. Quite has a level of experience and success in art as my guest. Today, she has garnered some of the biggest awards in the Crafts art world in the United States. For sure, she is in museums, all of the United States and even overseas, and she has been in her field for. Or like half a century. So I am so pleased and happy to be able to have this conversation with the wonderful Kathleen Dustin, and we’re talking about a favorite subject of mine, which is about evolving both our art and ourselves as artists. So let’s step back six weeks and come join me and Kathleen. For a conversation about Kathleen’s journey, her evolution as an artist, the things that she’s learned about evolving your art, and your evolution as an artist, so grab that comfy cup of tea or coffee or a glass of wine. Whatever it is that you need, and kick back and enjoy this great conversation.
Kathleen —
So my guest today is Kathleen Dustin. She is one of a handful of pioneers in the US bringing Palmer Clay into the art jewelry in fine art world. Kathleen, thank you so much for joining me today. Well, this really is wonderful. Sage, I’ve been looking forward to this for a while because I love your podcast. And I’ve listened to some of the other interviews too. Yeah.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, I was so excited to have you on here. You’ve been on my list since I started this, and I’m. Like I knew, she’s so busy. And I was afraid to bother people so, but great, I’m so glad we were able to work this out and get together on this. And today we are going to be focusing a lot more on you and your journey and things that I often do. So you’re going to have to talk a lot about yourself. You OK with that?
Kathleen —
Yeah, it’s not hard to talk about yourself, actually.
Sage —
That’s great. OK. So let’s start out with just tell our listeners what is your artistic focus, how long you’ve worked as an artist, what mediums you have worked in? Because you’ve done a little bit more than Poly.
Kathleen —
Right. Yeah. Well, my focus has been polymer clay for almost 50 years. I can’t believe it. It’s like when she was was it invented. But actually my background, I have an MFA in ceramics. And so it was very easy to move from regular ceramic clay to polymer clay. Right. And as I remember, you did that because you moved a lot back then. Yeah, because of my husband’s job, he worked for a government contractor. We lived in Saudi Arabia, which is actually where I first picked up polymer. Clay was in a children’s store that I picked up some female. That would have been early 80s like 801980.
Sage —
Wow, yeah.
Kathleen —
Well, actually I became introduced to it in 1972. A friend gave me some wow, but it was in the 80s that I first used any of it. Yeah. And then we also lived in Turkey, and I was thrilled to live in these places. And I couldn’t bring a ceramic studio with me.
Speaker
Sure.
Sage —
Yeah. That’d be rough.
Kathleen —
Well, I started working in polymer and I just decided to bring polymer with me and so I’d bring a whole, you know, big boxes full. And I could, you know, just work with it in my house so. When I came back to the US, I never went back to ceramics.
Sage —
Is that crazy? And for those people who aren’t familiar with polymer clay in its history, it was. I mean, the invention of it was in the 50s initially, but for completely different application. It was an art. And then someone decided worked well as a children’s art material.
Speaker
Yeah.
Sage —
And so really in the 70s and 80s was the first time that there were multiple people working with it. Most people that know what it was and they didn’t have access to much in the way of polymer clay. So this is really the start of the history of polymer clay as an art material with you. And just few other people.
Kathleen —
Yes, just a hand. People and what’s interesting, you know, we didn’t have any of this in terms of social media. And I’m thinking the Internet wasn’t even really that big yet. Yeah. And we all thought we were inventing. I thought I invented cane work and so did some of the others.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
Right. And then I I wrote this article for Ornament magazine called the Use of polymer in Bead making and that was in 1986. Yeah, but people started coming out of the woodwork. I met four and for Lana, we had all started about the same time I met Tori Hughes, Cynthia Tubes, and it was like you mean somebody else is doing this too, right? Yeah.
Sage —
This. Just.
Kathleen —
Making jewelry out of it so.
Sage —
Yeah, isn’t it so interesting that so many of you were doing this at the same time, working all these things out separately, but at the same time in the history of this of this art material, I really do think it’s a material whose time had come. Exactly. So it was amazing. So yes, you’re one of The Pioneers. You’re out there and you know in the beginning, inventing so many of the techniques that are used now and or, you know, Co inventing, as it were. It’s wonderful to hear about your journey because starting out from that point to where you are now and this being the basis of our conversation, there is a lot of evolution. There is a lot of change.
Kathleen —
Right, right.
Sage —
But before we get into that, because we’re gonna hear a lot more about your journey, just tell us a little bit more about you. Where do you live and what other passions do you have, maybe besides? Walmart.
Kathleen —
I live in New Hampshire and I live 3 miles from a village. I live in the woods and we.
Sage —
Yeah, you live outside of village. I love. Ohh villages here village.
Sage —
Yes, I know.
Kathleen —
But they’re. The village has an art gallery, and so it’s it’s quite around here, actually. Yeah. And we’ve been here about 20 years. So I’d always lived in big cities before moving here, and I thought, oh man, AM.
Sage —
I going to like living in the woods.
Kathleen —
And it took me about a year to adjust, but I absolutely love it and part of the reason was with my career, I had to go away.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
To the big shows to sell my. Work and so.
Sage —
That’s when I went and got my city fixed. Yeah. Yeah. And then you come back to all the woods and all the inspiration that that must entail. Yeah, that’s.
Kathleen —
Yeah. Right, yes. Yeah.
Sage —
So I know you from polymer art and I don’t know if we’ve ever discussed anything else. Do you have other things that you do? I mean, not necessarily in art, just in general. Other passions that you have.
Kathleen —
Right. In general, I would say art is my passion. I mean, I’m involved in church and now I have 6 grandchildren. So then I like riding a bike around in New Hampshire. It’s quite gorgeous. But other than that, I would say I mean, I live in my studio. Yeah, yeah.
Sage —
I understand that me too.
Kathleen —
Yeah. Yeah, really. So what would you say your family and friends say that you do? I would say they would say I’m an artist. I’ve actually, you know, self defining. I call myself an artist, but also a maker and also a. Master crafts. Men. But yeah, they they would say that.
Sage —
They’re just. She’s alright. We’ll just leave it.
Kathleen —
Yeah, because they.
Sage —
At that go talk to her.
Kathleen —
Right. That’s right, because that’s where I’ve spent all my time from when my kids were babies. I really was fortunate in having wonderful parents because I came from a family that. Did a lot. Of making and one of my grandfathers was a landscape painter and my mom. She really was an excellent seamstress and she was always making things and.
Sage —
That’s great.
Kathleen —
So I grew. Up in a family thinking. Doesn’t everybody just just sit down and make something? So when I was a child, I was gluing toothpicks together. I was hurting. So my mother never sent me to any special art classes.
Sage —
Buddy.
Sage —
No. Yeah.
Kathleen —
I.
Speaker
This.
Kathleen —
You know, there was like always. Elmer Glue and and toothpicks and. Cloth around the. Yeah, and I found myself making things. And what’s interesting is so when I went to college, I was getting, I decided to get a degree in mathematics.
Sage —
Was so different.
Kathleen —
And part of it was a feminist sort of thing.
Sage —
OK.
Kathleen —
Because I went to College in 1960. Fine. And I thought I can do math with all these guys who can do. I can do it too. So that was part of my reasoning. But when I told my parents I was going to get get a degree in mathematics, my mom said.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
You should be doing art, she. She just said you should. She knew. So I minored in art just to kind of make her happy.
Sage —
He knew, yeah.
Kathleen —
And then after I graduated, I worked in computers and in about 5 years I realized my mother was. Starting it so because I’d come home every evening and throw pottery, and my parents got. And so then I went back and I got married in there too, and went back. Back when I was 28 or 29 and got my Master of Fine Arts degree, yeah, you had to. Yes. Yes. Ohh. And then another thing is my father told me from, you know, my parents didn’t always say.
Sage —
Ohh look Kathy what you did? Ohh that’s.
Kathleen —
Put it on the refrigerator. Yeah, which is what parents do now, you know. You know, kids twist 2 pipe cleaners together and the parents are they frame it? Yes.
Sage —
Greater.
Sage —
Ohh my gosh, this is so fabulous.
Kathleen —
My parents didn’t say that, but my father said often enough. I’m so proud of you, Kathy. Ah. That’s even when I was in my 30s, you said I’m so proud of you. So just have. Yes. Having that kind of affirmation really made me.
Sage —
That’s wonderful. Me have a good deal of self-confidence so I’m I’m very, very thankful for that. Yeah, that’s wonderful. That’s the kind of support I think people don’t realize how much the verbalization of your thoughts actually matter, especially the children. They don’t know, you know. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Right. And I’ve listened to so many interviews with other artists, including your podcast. And so often the parents, they just didn’t get any affirmations of what they did or what they do. And that actually kind of drives them.
Sage —
No.
Kathleen —
Same thing. I think in my case it was the fact that ohh I can do this. OK great. Yeah.
Sage —
I didn’t, I always. Got how are you gonna make a living?
Kathleen —
Right. Well, that’s why it was so amazing. I hear I was getting a marketable degree, right? My parents said no, you should be in art. That’s so cool.
Sage —
Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
Sage —
It is.
Sage —
Yeah. So do you consider yourself a planner? Or a pancer.
Kathleen —
That is such a good question I I.
Sage —
Am always fascinated by it.
Sage —
Have heard you.
Kathleen —
Yes, I’ve heard you ask this of some others.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
And actually I decided I am both. Yeah. In different ways, huh? Now one thing was when I got my masters, one of the professors was critiquing my work. And he said, well, you know, your designs are fine. Your your craftsmanship is really good. Why don’t you make your work personal? Yeah, well, that was a very big question to me. And I I just kind of what does that mean to make your work personal? What to me? And I thought about it and thought about. And so from that time I have always endeavored to make my work personal, even though I want to sell it out in. The market, right? I’m making it personal, so in terms of planning I have a little sitting area in my studio and I’ll look out the window. And just think, OK, what’s important to me right now, what’s affecting me right now where what stage of life am I in right now? And how can I bring that out somehow in my work? Right. And that has been one of the best things. For me, so in that respect, I plan. I come up with a concept. And then work around in that concept for maybe quite a few years. But I’m always kind of trying to stick to that basic original. Yeah, but then within that, when I start making something, I’ll just have kind of a flash like, ooh, that. Ooh, that’s a cool shape. I’ll look at shapes and think, ooh, I like that shape. Maybe I can use that shape. And then it’s set to my. Pants. Yeah, I just start making and I might decide in advance what colors I’ll use, but I remember a lot of people hearing a lot of artists, say, draw, draw, draw, draw, sketch, sketch, sketch, sketch, Jeff Dever. He sketches constantly.
Speaker
Yes.
Sage —
Ohh like to see that.
Kathleen —
Yes. And he’s telling his students draw, draw, sketch, sketch and I want to say I don’t draw and I find that.
Sage —
Interesting cause I would have thought you did. Of course I.
Speaker
See.
Sage —
Well, we do it for other projects by new now. I know you specifically did it for those projects, yeah.
Kathleen —
Yes, yes and I. Mean I might. If I get a really good idea for a shape, I might draw it quickly just to remember it. Yeah, capture it. But I don’t sketch and I think it’s because I really think 3 dimensionally. I don’t think 2 dimensionally so to draw.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
Is not.
Sage —
That’s a transfer that well for you. Gotcha. Ohh. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I’ve always struggled with that. I’m so two-dimensional sometimes. It’s hard for me to go 3 dimension.
Kathleen —
Right, right. Yeah.
Sage —
Yeah, so, well, that’s an interesting thought. Like if you are thinking in three dimensions working with a piece of paper just may feel so restrictive. And how does it gonna express it?
Kathleen —
Right. It gives me a silhouette and maybe I’ll mix some colors of clays to get some that I like and try to remember the formula that I use, right? But often I’ll just be mixing and making. Yeah, because I don’t intend generally to make.
Sage —
Sure. Things like that.
Kathleen —
35 of something unless it’s earrings, but even earrings can often be more one of the.
Sage —
Yeah. Kind Sir. And so they’re planning part is all this time beforehand this kind of I always call it marination of your ideas. Is that what?
Kathleen —
Yes, yes and well and sort of thinking of a concept of an idea. I see so many artists who don’t have any grounding concept grounding idea.
Sage —
You’re thinking of.
Kathleen —
Yeah, they just make what they what the latest workshop, right that they took. And you know, when I was in grad school, when the professor asked me, why don’t you make your work personal. But the big switch that happened for me in my brain was before that I just wanted to make pretty thing.
Sage —
Sure. Right, yeah.
Kathleen —
And everybody wants to make pretty things beautiful things. But that’s not enough.
Sage —
Of course. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Now.
Kathleen —
That’s not enough of a reason. You need to express yourself in some way and it can be a little scary.
Sage —
It’s very scary, yeah.
Kathleen —
Because. Later. You want to express pain, maybe? How do you express pain? And OK then I also want to say that, well, this is all kind of cool. Yeah. Well, it’s all kind of cool.
Sage —
Look how excited you’re getting.
Kathleen —
Was after working for five years for other people, I decided. I will never go back and work for someone else. They wanted to be my own. Yeah, and making the decisions myself, I haven’t worked for anybody since then. That’s why I hate commissions.
Sage —
Ohh yeah. I’m with you on that one.
Kathleen —
I don’t want anybody telling me what to do, right?
Sage —
Well, you also have to just think you’re trying to like, think like them and what? Would they like and? It just blocks who you are and what you can put.
Kathleen —
Into the work. Yeah. And then when I did do it once or twice, you know, I’d show them what my. Proposals were well.
Sage —
Can’t you do this a little this way and make that a little different creed?
Speaker
And.
Kathleen —
And then it’s finally like.
Sage —
Why don’t you make it?
Sage —
Right, right.
Kathleen —
Do you want me to make it or not? Yeah, I I get a little perturbed. I don’t often suffer fools gladly. Not great. So business. Ohh well. OK. Well, after that experience.
Sage —
Well, no.
Kathleen —
I decided, OK, I am. I want to make a living selling my work and sell from, you know, right out of grad school. I got my, you know, registered as a business. And then I realized because my work is quite detailed and. I also. Ohh spend a lot of time with the engineering and figuring things out. My work was gonna take a long time to make. Yeah, and I wanted to make the most I could for that work. Yeah. And I knew I wasn’t going to be able to bring it to the little local. Art fair in the park. And set up a table and sell my work. I did that right out of college once or twice with my ceramics, but then so I started. Fortunately at the same time here in the US, these really wonderful fine craft shows began like the Smithsonian.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
And the Philadelphia Museum of Art and the American Craft Exposition, which was in Chicago. You know, and I made it a goal for myself to get into those shows and I knew that was my market. Yeah, I had to find my market and I realized I needed to go somewhere and bring my wares, like maybe old and olden days. And sell my work to the people who. Would buy my work. And spend a good amount of money on it. Yeah. And I mean, it was hard just to get into these shows, but I really endeavored, I I paid photographers a lot of money. I didn’t take my own photographs. I mean, this was at a time when you you never took your own photographs.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
You know, I thought about a business plan. How much do I need to make per day in my studio in order to make a living doing this? Because the fees, the booth fees in these shows are quite high.
Sage —
Yeah, sure.
Kathleen —
But I also. Realized it takes money to make money, right? So I wasn’t going to just bring a table cloth on a table. Yeah. Yeah. So from the very beginning, almost. I had a goal to make a living doing this. I took it very seriously.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
And one of the. Things I’m most proud of now is that I’ve had a career selling my.
Sage —
Work you have, yeah.
Kathleen —
And A and a good. A good career, yes.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah. And I don’t think we’ve mentioned, but for people who don’t know what you do, your primary forms are jewelry.
Kathleen —
And handbags, yes, purses and.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah, which is very unusual in the polymer community.
Kathleen —
In any community.
Sage —
Well, maybe leather, but.
Kathleen —
No, not leather, right leather. Is about the only loss you know and people say. Where’d you?
Sage —
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Sage —
Get the idea of a heavy bag.
Kathleen —
And I really do think it was my background in ceramics and making vessels, right and containers. And the more I learned about using polymer and how flexible it can be if it’s baked properly. Yeah. And it was one of those epiphanies in the middle of the night. I woke up and said.
Sage —
And Dave’s like what? What, what, what?
Sage —
What are you talking about?
Kathleen —
So then I had to engineer a way to make handbags because I realized polymer clay, I don’t have to make square things like you do in leather or maybe even a wood box, yeah. I can make them any shape I want, so then I started thinking about like Japanese enro and the Nets, skies, little sculptures.
Sage —
Yeah, with a lot of freedom in there. Right.
Kathleen —
And kind of getting into that, there was a lot of engineering going into it because I didn’t want to make hinges. So I just made it where there are two holes in the lid that have cord that goes into the two holes. The cord connects to the bottom of the purse and you slide.
Sage —
Yeah, right. And.
Kathleen —
The lid up the core. So it’s a very easy, straightforward way, like an end.
Sage —
Row, right? Yeah. You don’t have those pressure points you would have with the hinge or something where the wear and tear on it would be this.
Kathleen —
Right, yes. Which would wouldn’t be good.
Sage —
Right there. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Purses. Unusual. And then you do jewelry like big, bold art pieces. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Art. Jewelry. Yes. State statement. Things. Yes. Yes. I’m not sure where that came from because I was raised in a small town. Uh-huh. But it was an artsy town because it was a resort town on Lake MI. And so there were wealthy people who came into town, and we had some nice.
Sage —
Yeah, exactly so.
Speaker
Alright.
Kathleen —
Boutiques and we had a couple of gallery. So I think I kind of had an urban upbringing in a small town.
Sage —
Yeah, well, it’s sunk in from somewhere. I mean, and also probably from stuff that you saw overseas because you know, I mean, a lot of the more ethnic, I don’t want to call ethnic or items from the Middle East, they’re not dainty.
Kathleen —
Yeah. Ohh yes. Right. Well, the material culture, yes, the material culture of other societies is definitely because they. We were making a statement with what they wear, what tribe they’re from, what, what stance they are. They didn’t use gold necessarily. We use gold and diamonds and precious gems for status, right. They didn’t. And I think that’s one reason why I had such travel lust.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
Is. Because I was interested in the material culture of all of these other places that were so different from my yeah.
Sage —
So it sounds like we’re kind of heading into our subject matter, but I have other questions. I usually ask just cause it ends up being sometimes a little fun thing we can weave into this. Do you have a favorite guilty pleasure food? I just I find this so revealing.
Kathleen —
Guilty pleasure. I guess my only thing would be and I don’t know how guilty it is is I have 80 glass of wine every single night with my dinner.
Sage —
Well, that’s for health, right, right, right.
Sage —
That’s OK. You gotta have that one.
Kathleen —
Yeah. Yeah, Yep, Yep, Yep.
Sage —
So OK, so. Wine, I guess so we can, uh, it’s too bad. We didn’t get. A glass we could just sitting here. Drink it, I.
Kathleen —
I’ll just look at, yeah.
Sage —
Mean it’s a little early, but right?
Kathleen —
Loosen me up even more, yeah. So while getting into the allowing your work to evolve, I will start out by saying that. When I first did the evening bags and purses, they’re not. I called them special occasion bags. I was thinking about women and who I am as a woman at that time I was a young mother and kids were driving me crazy. And I thought, you know what women really are Saints and goddesses. And so I started getting into kind of a Saints and goddesses idea. So my first bags were actually. Like like the upper half of a female character that was stylized or just the head and shoulders of a female character that you could actually pull the back of her head up and get into the bag, and that that moved in. She just drawing faces.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
We looked at Renaissance faces and you know, beautiful paintings. And I drew them right onto baked polymer clay, then layered over it with translucent clay. And so then I was getting tired of doing the female faces.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
But where do I go? Well, at that same time we had just moved to New Hampshire from an urban setting, seeing lots of museums and all that too. Being in the woods. And I did a lot, a lot of walking in the woods.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
And I actually picked up a little pod and I.
Speaker
Thought.
Kathleen —
What a great person thought would be.
Sage —
With us because they just can’t.
Sage —
Kind of came out of nowhere. I remember looking at your history and all of a sudden that makes so much sense now.
Kathleen —
Well, what that shows you and anyone listening is to pay attention. I feel like our job as artist is to pay attention to whatever current events the world.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
Why aren’t you before? I was paying attention to. The place of. Women, my place in the world as a woman anyway. So then I thought ohh my gosh, I should just change my work. And so between two different shows it might have been over the winter time by completely changed from doing the purses. With faces on them, huh? To doing pods and buds and sort of surrealistic they weren’t, you know, actual things from nature. But they looked like some kind of science fiction. Pot or? Yeah. Yeah. So people had started to notice my work and collect my work, and everyone came to my booth and said.
Sage —
Where are the faces and.
Sage —
I was going to ask how your clientele felt about the change, yeah.
Kathleen —
Where are the faces and.
Sage —
They said I came here to buy a face.
Kathleen —
And I said I’m. This is what I had now. Ohh then they would say. Ohh darn I should have bought that one last year when I saw it and I said yes, you should have.
Sage —
So you know what you do today?
Kathleen —
Well, that’s it, I said. You know, artists change their work and what I wanted to say was I felt at the time I was taking a huge. Absolutely. Yeah. And I was being pretty courageous about it, actually. I mean, I could have gone and they could have been and everybody was like, ohh, my gosh, what is this weird stuff?
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
But then I also realized nothing in life that’s of any value goes without risk. You know, you get married, you take over, you have kids, right? You have kids, you take a risk. You need to have courage. As an artist. I really believe that. So then I did all the organic pieces. I still like them so very much.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
But then all of our travels started having more. Of an effect on me again. And the way craftsmen work in other cultures, they, you know, they’ve got a piece of bone or a stone or something, and they just start decorating it. They don’t draw. That’s maybe why I don’t draw either. They didn’t draw with pencil. On it on the piece. Of yeah. And plan it out. The card, right. And so the way to decorate where you just start putting dots. On and they may not be exactly straight. They might go in a funny way, and then the next row of dots is another funny way. I really liked that because you’re seeing the hand. So I decided to do all this really tedious, intricate work because.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
All these other cultures, they don’t have a lot to do like at night by fire and light. They’re making something because it was so satisfying too.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
Them. So I’ve done that series for quite a while now, thinking I want to go into another series. So The thing is, I guess what I want to say is I don’t hop around all over the place and have no focus. I have focus for a time. Time and I think that’s important. So people get to know your work. I’m in an organization called the League of New Hampshire Craftsman, which is a very, very old. They started in the depression. It’s 90. I think this is our 90th year and we have an art fair that I’ve participated in for 20 years. And there are some like silversmiths in that they’re doing exactly the same things they did when I first started. Right. Yeah. And I say to, yeah, I don’t say it. I want to say to them, aren’t you getting tired?
Sage —
Of this.
Kathleen —
And yes, they are. As a matter of fact. So what’s happening is their soul is gone. The work is cold. People either have it all now.
Sage —
Yeah.
Sage —
Or they’re tired of it.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
They want something.
Sage —
New, but it probably would have been scary for them to change if this is their living.
Kathleen —
Yes, it’s. It’s hard scary now. That doesn’t mean you need to take a complete shift like I’ve done. You can merge into some new work.
Sage —
Dreamily. Right.
Kathleen —
You asked one of your guests, do you make your work for yourself or others? Right. And I I I was surprised, she said. Others. Because I never make my work for others, I do make like, say, a certain kind of earrings. I’ll make sure it hangs well and it works on people’s bodies appropriately, and even a big necklace. But I decided that when I make it for myself. There’s something in there that speaks to somebody. Else the background, the concept or the the way I do my colors or something and I found that the few times where I thought ohh that’s a good idea, I’ll bet I can sell 50 pair of those and I make 50 pair and they just don’t sell.
Sage —
What are you gonna do?
Speaker
Ohh so then.
Kathleen —
They get reduced in price and then reduced and I realized no, I personally now this isn’t true for everyone, but I personally cannot make work. That I think will sell. Yeah. I have to make work that I would buy or others like me would buy. Yeah. Now I’m getting older now, and so am I gonna sell to young people or not? I don’t know.
Sage —
It’s interesting to note. That, I mean, you have to do this for yourself, because that’s who you are and I’m trying to think of who it was. I asked that question. I do remember that answer coming across because I thought the same thing. I was like, oh, really? Because I’m always talking about, like, putting yourself into your work, doing it for yourself 1st and then the people will come. Because I think like what you said. Earlier, we want to make something beautiful and that’s kind of how we start out. But I think if you make something that is of yourself, those people who see that genuine show of yourself in the work, that is the beauty that they’re drawn to. Yeah. So some people though, that do it over and over again, they found their one thing and they found that one bit of beauty and it’s hard.
Kathleen —
To get away from and then, well, what happens is it gets cold.
Sage —
It yeah, exactly.
Kathleen —
If you do millions of them, yeah.
Sage —
And here’s the parallel we’re talking about how your art can evolve. But we’re human beings, we evolve. We are constantly changing. So why would our work not change with us? Yes, all that change is scary. Changing as a person is scary. Changing our lives is scary. Changing our art is scary, but we do the things in our life to make things.
Kathleen —
Right.
Speaker
Yeah.
Sage —
More interesting or better or to get motivated, or to be passionate, or to be happy. Here.
Kathleen —
Well, I absolutely love what you just said. We are not staying the same. Why? Our words stay the same and other people don’t stay the same either. And the times the styles don’t stay the same and it is a risk you have to take. You have to take it. I say this a lot. But hey, I’ve been doing this for 50 years.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
Uh, I feel like I can. Be opinionated, yeah.
Sage —
Well, we’re here to to find out about your experience, right? Yeah. I mean, I think some people maybe a lot of change is too much for them, but some kind of change, being able to, I don’t know. I I’ve always felt that being an artist was about exploration and that never changes.
Kathleen —
And.
Sage —
Like it that never changes, right? The idea of exploring should never be like, oh, I’ve already done that exploration. Now I’m just making art. I don’t think it ever stops. No. If you’re actually really, you know, involved in your work and enjoying it and putting yourself into it.
Kathleen —
Right. Right. By the same token, even though I’ve done these different series in my life, people still tell me. But I can tell it’s yours.
Sage —
Right. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah.
Kathleen —
So yes, so and that’s because in the back of my mind always is is this personal? Is this me or is it the latest 10 pictures I saw on Instagram? You know, and that’s one problem with social media is you see so many great ideas and clever ideas. Wow, how creative is that? And so I I actually have tried to stop looking at Instagram for I’ll take a little vacation for a few days, you know, or at least.
Sage —
Yeah. Me too this stuff just. Gets in your head and I don’t want to be I for myself. I don’t want to be comparing what I’m doing to other people. I have my own thoughts, opinions, life and I want that to come out into the work, not just what I’m filtering through. From what I’m seeing, consciously or unconsciously.
Kathleen —
Right, right. Yeah. And that’s not to say I don’t look at art books. I don’t go to muse. I do. I look at art books, I go to museums and I am influenced by what artists in the past have done and how people have approached certain things. Things. But that’s part. Of I think paying attention to everything, yeah.
Sage —
Right, exactly. And finding what it is that you feel connected to in the work that you’re looking at, that’s one thing I wish we spent more time in museums than we did on Instagram, because I think it’s hard to feel connected to something that you’re looking at for two seconds and then you’re like, oh, there must be something.
Kathleen —
Right. Ohh yeah.
Sage —
Else than something greater or better, and that’s why people keep scrolling.
Kathleen —
Right.
Sage —
Yes, yes.
Sage —
But when you’re in a museum. You’re like I’m here. For this and you just spend time with it.
Kathleen —
And and when it’s in real life. The scale is different. I mean, when we look at Instagram, the teeny little things are blown up and they get Titanic things are, yeah, it’s all the same size.
Sage —
Everything’s the same size.
Speaker
But you’re in.
Kathleen —
A museum and you see a painting that’s eight feet across.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
It just you. Get blown away or you see something so minutely gorgeous. So you are right. Ohh I’ve gotta do that more now too.
Speaker
Yeah.
Sage —
Yeah, I know. My husband and I were just talking about that. How you fall into these routines of things that you’re doing and taking care of the day-to-day and and we’re here in the LA area. I mean, we’re an hour N, but you know, I mean, the museums in this area are absolutely incredible. Yeah. And every once in a while, I guess, we need to go. But we need to we decided we need to make it. We’re putting them on our calendar. We’re just putting them down.
Kathleen —
Yes.
Sage —
If we’re not out seeing them in person, it’s just you’re not experiencing it in the full capacity that that work has for you.
Kathleen —
Or isn’t that the truth? Yes. And I’m thinking you’re right. Today is Museum Day or not. Next week is a museum day we can’t forget.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it needs to be on there cause it’s so hard to get lost in everything that we have to do life.
Kathleen —
Yeah.
Sage —
Has gotten.
Kathleen —
So complicated. It’s and it’s too busy with a bunch of dumb stuff. So.
Sage —
Busy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. The evolution that you’ve had through out all your years, have you been able to identify any common thread about what pushes you to change what you’re doing, or are there individual circumstances in your life that just kept saying to you I I need to be doing something different?
Kathleen —
I would say two things. One is I get tired of thinking in the same way of, OK, what’s another shape I can do in this way and people aren’t buying my work as quick. Because they’re getting tired of it too. And I really, you know, sort of a metaphysical thing is I feel like my soul isn’t in it anymore when I’m not getting the response and I’m not feeling as excited about finishing a piece.
Sage —
Sure.
Kathleen —
Then sometimes it’s like darn, I gotta think of something. New but but. By the same token, it also then releases me. To like what haven’t I explored yet. Like you said, it’s an exploration. Yeah. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, I’ve never put any, like current events or current problems right into my.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
And I’ve been thinking about, should I continue with this whole Silk Road stuff and someone came to me from an organization called guns to garden tools and what they do is they have events where people can bring guns.
Sage —
OK.
Kathleen —
Whether it’s old, antique things, the things they don’t want, their husband’s gun, they’re really mad at him about or whatever they bring a gun and they turn it in, they donate it, they don’t get paid for it. As soon as they turn it in, it gets cut in half.
Speaker
OK.
Kathleen —
And when it gets cut in half, immediately it’s no longer a firearm. It doesn’t have. You don’t have to worry about registration, licensing all of that. And then artisans make garden tools like using a lawn barrel to make a shovel or a hole. Other artisans have done. Others like using the the wooden stock and turning little bowls making little carving. Ohh so a woman from this organization.
Sage —
OK.
Kathleen —
Gave me a box of bits and pieces cut up from guns, handguns, rifles, all of this. And I thought, well, maybe here’s my chance to make a statement against gun shootings in schools. And so I think about jewelry. So I strung together some pieces. I didn’t string them. I joined them with jump rings, but they’re all black. I actually had to work on them quite a bit. Grinding off sharp edges, cutting them down because they were too big or too long, and I had to find lightweight ones not too heavy.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
So I have like triggers and half of a magazine that goes into a pistol, but they’re all black. Yeah. So I’m saying, OK, what can I do? I want to make a statement. So one person suggested I maybe put a little hurt. Somewhere. But what are the mixed messages here? What are the messages? Yeah. Then my daughter suggested. Could you change the color? And so I thought, well, as a matter of fact, I could. So I’m going to spray paint them maybe three different colors like. Mid century modern colors or something so that I am fundamentally changing these pieces that are just metal after all into soften it somehow. But it’s been such a good challenge.
Sage —
OK. Right.
Kathleen —
I mean, I’m. Not gonna do a whole bunch of jewelry made out of guns. Yeah, but it’s.
Sage —
Been such a good.
Kathleen —
Challenge for me and so it’s making me think maybe I do want to make some jewelry that makes sort of a contemporary statement. Against war against who knows? Yeah. So you’re saying you’re at a point right now where you feel like you might want to have more of a message in it than that you have in the past, right? Right. More of a contemporary message. And actually, I’ve done a series of sort of modern art pieces. They were kind of woven in with the Silk Road, so these modern art pieces, they were abstract things. I would often put in some kind of a red slash, and to me that was representing pain.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
But yet it looks kind of cool. Wonderful thing. It’s it to me. It’s paying, but nobody else would probably read it as pain.
Speaker
Yeah, right.
Kathleen —
And so I have put in there that you can make beautiful things and there’s still some pain involved, just like life is beautiful, but there’s pain involved. It’s often beautiful because of pain being the antithesis. Yeah. Beautiful because pain is in there too. So I’ve kind of made that sort of a hidden message, but it it’s not really a message, but that life does include pain and it will include pain right in some way. And that’s what makes life beautiful. Right. Right. That’s more of an interpretation of your view of life.
Sage —
Yes, like a method. You know anti guns or what, right? Yeah. Weekly. So your evolution right now, it’s moving into this other thing because of something from the outside that was brought to you. Yes. A limitation really that you have been given to work with. And I I honestly find limitations to be I I love limitations.
Kathleen —
Exactly, cause it does force you to think so differently, right? And you can be more creative within limitations, yeah.
Sage —
You can really be.
Kathleen —
And that’s why what I was going to say is I have also, because I’ve been a juror and shows and for the League of New Hampshire Craftsman, sometimes you see a person’s work and they all they need are five images, 5 pieces and each piece is different than the last. And there’s no thread, and so it’s important, even though I have moved to these different series within each series, there’s a thread. So I would say it is important to have a thread in you. Work you don’t want to just jump around all the time, making totally different looking stuff that looks like what you saw online, or looks like what some teacher taught you. Some kind of personal thread is important and when I. Jury someone’s work, if at all, is like hodgepodge Y, then they don’t get in. Why would you say that is necessary for most arts across the board, either because of the focus or because of the salability? I would say focus and salability, but you know in terms of salability you want people to be able to recognize your work, right, and you don’t want. So I call it being anonymous. You don’t want your work to be anonymous, meaning it looks like 20-5 other people that have made the same.
Sage —
Everybody else is. Yeah, yeah.
Sage —
Thing.
Sage —
Right, right. So some kind of personal thread important both for shows and exhibitions and for selling. Yeah. So if somebody is an exploratory phase and they’re making a bunch of different types of things because they are exploring, do you think at some point they need to find? That thread and then explore that that singular thread. Or do you think they just keep exploring until they find what it is they want to do and not worry about? The thread you know what I’m saying.
Kathleen —
Well, I can understand. Yeah. Because when I mean, way back when when I first started, I was just making pretty. Things. And then when I started to make it personal, I actually went to my family and I my very first things in ceramics were the interiors of my relatives houses because I came from immigrant background and they’d all come at the turn of the last century.
Sage —
Right.
Sage —
They had lousy taste.
Kathleen —
And so, you know, there was wallpaper on one that did not go at all with the wallpaper on the other and.
Sage —
Oh, I remember some of your early work. You did that with.
Kathleen —
Yes. And I saw what wet. Yes. And then with Palmer. I made some little ones, but I made large wall sculptures that were sort of three-dimensional. And it was all.
Sage —
Polymer too, yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Memories of my relatives houses from South Chicago.
Sage —
Interesting, yeah.
Kathleen —
That’s how I made it personal, but I took a long time to think about it and it was an idea that got me excited. And so I would say yes, he exploring, especially with techniques, because if you don’t know the material, it’s hard to.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
Think of a concept. That you then can do with the material you do need to get really confident with the material, right? So yes, that definitely is important, but then at some point it might be a good idea to, like, say, buckle down and OK, I want to find. Some way I can make this personal? One more thing though.
Sage —
Yeah, I’m getting more.
Kathleen —
Excited is so I’ve been working with the women of some not and they’re this women’s shelter in Nepal and this organization makes polymer jewelry to sell to support themselves, to support the organization.
Sage —
I love it.
Kathleen —
Anyway, so I started working with them. And what’s so great and amazing is I had to learn that here in the US. And I would say in the Western general, our self concept is independent. In many other cultures, their self concept is. Interdependent. They don’t say about finding your own voice and being personal. They want to do it as a group and they want to know that other people are liking what they’re.
Sage —
Right.
Kathleen —
And so now what we do is we all get together over zoom and we try to engage them in sort of group design and they are so pleased when they came up with something and we really like it. And they say, look what we did you they don’t say. Look what I did. Yeah. And and.
Sage —
What? Yeah. Or so and so came up with the idea, yeah.
Kathleen —
Right. So I maybe all these words I’m saying I would not say in Eastern cultures.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, well, can you summarize some of this a little bit? What would you say to artists out there like what could they do to prepare for the problems that might come up when they try to evolve as artists? Ohh, that’s a hard question. Everyone else says that’s a good question. That’s a hard question. Well, in your experience, is there anything that you did? Because the risk can be so scary, are there things that you think that we can do either to ameliorate the potential for risk or failure, or at least, you know, encouragement for even if you do fail, there are things that can come out of it that are worth.
Kathleen —
While I would say now, perhaps not doing it as drastically as I did, making a cut with your older style, and I would say merge, yeah, you know, you start to test out some of the new ideas. Have a small.
Sage —
That makes sense.
Kathleen —
Like if you have a booth or even online, have a small section. That’s the new idea. And announce it, propose it. Say, look, I’m so excited about my new work kind of thing.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
And I’ve seen people do that actually. Yes, yes. I think part of the reason I was able to do it so drastically is because I have a pretty good self-image. Yeah, and a pretty strong like I don’t care if you. Don’t like it? That helps, right? Sort of. Don’t tell me what to do kind of thing. I I I should just tell you one funny little story from when I was. Yeah.
Sage —
Yeah.
Speaker
This.
Kathleen —
I was 2. And a half. Or three, and we’d rented an upstairs apartment somewhere. And so you had to climb all these stairs. So one time at this age, I’m climbing this whole flight of stairs and my uncle came behind me and just scooped me up and brought me upstairs. And I got to the top and I said. Kathy do because Kathy was my name. And so I said, khaki and meaning Kaki, do Kathy Doo. And I walked all the way down the stair and then climbed up myself. So I think from.
Sage —
Huh.
Speaker
Of course.
Sage —
I love it. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Birth I was. Don’t tell me what to do. I got. Including customers, it may not have. So. Been a good idea, but I think I had. Enough confidence in the new idea that I thought somebody’s going to like this, even if it’s not the old customers, but I think that’s pretty unusual, actually. Maybe because it it actually was a good idea, but I know not every idea I’ve ever had has.
Sage —
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Turned out well and I’ve retired a few ideas like this one isn’t working great.
Sage —
But you’ll never know until you take that risk. And yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
Well, that’s right. Take a chance and actually do the idea. Don’t do one piece. Don’t do 2 pieces. Actually. Explore the idea right to develop it. Because I have learned I don’t actually develop the idea for until like 3 pieces. Right. Or four patients, right? And you know you hate it because, like, ohh darn, I spent all that time. Great. So yeah, you need to push it for a time anyway.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, well, that would be like saying, oh, I’m sorry I took that class. That’s why I try to think of the things that I have to learn through their mistakes. I may spend a lot of time on a piece and I’ll never show it like I’m doing a lot of work right now. The last year or two, I’ve been doing a lot of painting, which I haven’t done since after art school, and I’m not showing anybody anything.
Kathleen —
Yeah.
Sage —
Because I’m just exploring, this is just learning phase or relearning phase for me. Everything we do doesn’t have to be a finished product that you put on Instagram, right, which just it’s it’s hard because we want to connect and we want to reach out and we want to be part of something bigger than ourselves. But sometimes you just have to.
Kathleen —
Right. Right, that’s exactly exactly. It just has to be you in the work, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you may throw it away. Yeah. Yeah. You may just paint over it someday.
Sage —
Ohh yeah right, exactly, and that’s OK. But that does also bring up the fact that risk when we’re talking about risk, we’re not just talking about monetary risk. There’s the risk to the ego and the the risk to our motivation.
Kathleen —
Yeah. All right.
Sage —
And stuff like that. So I mean having a strong background like you do, having supportive parents and always being a don’t tell me what to. Do that kind of. Person has probably given you a step up, you know, from what I only have dealt with, but.
Speaker
Yeah.
Kathleen —
I have to say though, I have had shows that were not as successful as I’d hope. And I I don’t feel good, right? And I’m and I do revalue weight think.
Sage —
Ohh my gosh, my work so doable.
Sage —
So you have two glasses of wine that night.
Kathleen —
Yes, exactly. And then I think about it a. Little longer and I think no. This is this is good stuff. Those people just didn’t. Know what they were looking at?
Sage —
Right, that’s it. It’s gotta be it.
Kathleen —
I mean, I can understand how artists feel who don’t have as much self-confidence, because even when I do a show, I get all of my work out there. It’s all set up and arranged and displayed and I feel very proud of myself of the work. But I’m also shaking in my boots. But just for a little bit until the first person comes in and says.
Sage —
Ohh wow, look at.
Kathleen —
This you know, but if there is a man who just walks by and they.
Sage —
Ohh.
Kathleen —
And I I don’t. Yeah, I get a little defeated, but I think that’s part of being an artist too, because we are putting. It’s almost like I’m lying there on the ground asking them to respect me. You know, you seriously.
Sage —
Yeah. Seriously, yeah. But doesn’t that just indicate to you that you’re doing the right thing? If you’re not a little scared, you probably haven’t put much of yourself into the work because that vulnerability. That’s the scary part.
Kathleen —
It is, yeah. You know, I do want to say, though, this is my journey and I’ve noticed how different everyone’s artistic journey is. They’re so different. And I know that there are excellent artists out there in the polymer clay.
Sage —
So different, yeah.
Kathleen —
World who’ve made really good living selling their work, and they say I just make what I think looks good. They don’t make it personal.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
Well, I was not able to do that and I think that’s kind of finding your own trick. You know, some people are such good artists that all the colors they do, all the techniques, they figure out, it just works.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
I need to have some underground underlying thread in there and then my skill. I can develop, yeah, but some people can just work on their.
Sage —
Skills, and if that’s satisfying to them, that’s great. Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
That’s right. You know, I don’t ever want to say this is how. You should. Right. But I would say generally speaking, it wouldn’t hurt if people push themselves a little more into the vulnerability personal direction, yeah.
Sage —
Right. Right, right. And you’re not going to know it is for you or isn’t for you unless you try, you know. So you try it out. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. But now you know. And now you know more about.
Kathleen —
Right. Right.
Sage —
Self. Yeah, exactly so right. Yeah.
Kathleen —
Right.
Sage —
Alright, well why?
Sage —
Don’t we ask a couple of exit? Questions, so to speak.
Kathleen —
One day.
Sage —
I just just like some things I like to to make sure we touch base on. So is there any particular lesson that you learned over your career that you think was the most important thing that you’ve experienced up to this point?
Kathleen —
It’s still. I come back to it again. Make your work personal. And in fact, it makes it so that when I go somewhere, well, it’s interesting. It’s almost the opposite. When I go to, like a gallery opening or some kind of a party or gathering, I’ve decided to start.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
Thinking about looking at the other people I meet and thinking what is their lives like? How are? They doing instead of just asking.
Sage —
How are you?
Sage —
We all do. It’s it’s way to start things.
Kathleen —
And that’s standard. But kind of turning it around. So there’s something about the authenticity, I guess, trying to find an authenticity in another person. And I was always trying to be authentic. So maybe that would be a good thing to say, be authentic.
Sage —
Yeah. Yeah, with your. Which is a lot of self exploration because some people just don’t even know what authenticity is, what they’re they are. Authenticity is. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s part of why we do art. At least it’s part of what I do. Art and my writing too is.
Kathleen —
That’s right. Yes.
Sage —
Like the creative work is a lot of self exploration. If you are approaching with a you know idea about making it personal and putting yourself into it. Yeah. Also we touched on this a little bit, but how would you feed your muse? What kind of things do you do to keep yourself inspired?
Kathleen —
Yeah. Right. I do try to go to museums. I don’t go as often as I should.
Sage —
Hmm.
Kathleen —
Yeah, but I have, you know, I love art books. And so I’ll go and look at art books at the library or even look through my past art book.
Speaker
Hmm.
Kathleen —
Because it’s a visual stimulation, and even if it has nothing to do with what I’m working on or thinking about, it’s a visual feast. So I do try to feed myself visually, including going shopping I’m doing.
Sage —
Right. Right. This for art.
Kathleen —
That’s. Right. And I’m. Going to write it off and deduct it from my taxes.
Sage —
That dress was absolutely necessary.
Kathleen —
Right, right. But even something like going shopping, you know, it’s stimulating with colors and patterns and textures and yes, maybe you buy something to feed yourself.
Sage —
That’s hilarious.
Kathleen —
And I’ll I’ll go for a walk in the woods too. I haven’t done that as much. And then here in the winter, it’s not pleasant. If not. Yeah, not. It’s harder to walk in the woods. You see some cool stuff. But I think I’d rather love living where you than where? I don’t like the.
Sage —
Yeah. Please. Yeah, absolutely. Ohh yeah.
Kathleen —
Cold what’s the weather?
Sage —
You know, I I lived in Colorado for 22 years and and we actually had all the seasons and.
Kathleen —
Yeah, I I do.
Sage —
Now we’re like, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
I like the seasons right? I do have to say that and I like sweaters and everything. Yeah, right.
Sage —
Right sweaters and scarves. And I just have those all set for when I go visit in Colorado. I’m like, yay, I can take them all out. Alright. Well, then the last question I asked cause I think this is really important for us to all have our own definition of success. So what would you say your definition of success for yourself is?
Sage —
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah, yeah.
Kathleen —
You know it’s interesting because I actually thought about this when I was young. What would make me feel successful as an artist? For me it was making a living doing it and getting some affirmation like being in a museum in the permanent collection and I and I’ve achieved well. I’ve achieved my goals and I’m very happy with that.
Sage —
Yeah. Which you have. Sean in spades. Yeah.
Kathleen —
You know, I have no regrets at all. And there were a few years when I was kind of scraping by and fortunately I have a husband who makes a living too. Yeah, yeah.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
I did actually support the family during a two year time when he got laid off and tried to be an independent contractor and it really wasn’t working.
Sage —
Ah. Didn’t work out, but yeah.
Kathleen —
So I’m proud of that and make a goal for yourself like that, even though it seems like it’s way, way pie in the sky.
Sage —
You never know if you don’t have those dreams. You can’t, then you can’t chase them.
Kathleen —
Know you never know, right? That’s that’s right, no.
Sage —
Right. Well, Kathleen, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for all this. And is there any last words or anything that you wanted to say that I didn’t cover?
Sage —
Yes.
Kathleen —
This has been so wonderful, I can’t think about anything except I love your podcast. And I learned even though I have a lot of skills.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
I learn a lot from your podcast and I just want to tell everybody. Sign up.
Sage —
Ohh well go for it.
Kathleen —
And support support saying. Yeah. Seriously. Seriously.
Sage —
Yeah. Well, thank you. It’s. It means a lot to me to hear that it’s helping even someone has experiences you. Thank you. Yeah.
Kathleen —
No, it really does, yeah. In fact, it’s one of my ways of feeding myself.
Sage —
Ohh and This is why I do it. So I just I’d love to hear that. Thank you so much. So where can people find your work and see what you’re doing and where you’re going to be? What shows you’re going to be at next?
Kathleen —
Great. Well, unfortunately my website got broken and it was an issue with the photographs and it was an old system on WordPress they didn’t support it anymore. So you can go to my website to find out my artist statements and my workshops. But.
Sage —
OK. Yeah. Yeah.
Kathleen —
No pictures or.
Sage —
Yeah.
Kathleen —
3 Otherwise, the best is on Instagram, Kathleen. Dustin.
Sage —
OK, OK, we’ll put links in the show notes or descriptions section of the podcast players, so you have that and we’ll just keep track of you. OK, well, thanks so much, Kathleen. I really appreciate you talking to. This is wonderful.
Kathleen —
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good.
Sage —
Felt banging the sage.
Kathleen —
It was wonderful.
Sage —
Yay.
Sage —
Yay is right. What a great conversation. I just loved getting that insight from somebody who’s been in the industry for so long, has had such great success and done it from such a really human standpoint as big an artist as she is. She’s just like the rest of us. We all go through our moments. Of doubt are taking risks or not taking risks are good times or bad times, and evolution and the changes that we make as artists and with our.
Kathleen —
Part are all.
Sage —
Part of the journey and part of the experience of being a creative. So hopefully you got a lot out of it, so maybe this summer make it maybe a point for you to look at what you are doing as an artist. Have you changed, have you evolved? Have you taken risks? Have you looked at how you’re expressing yourself personally? Is your work personal on any? Well, again, like we said, you don’t have to do that. But if you haven’t tried it, you may never know what you’re missing or what kind of extra boost your work and your joy in your work can have from those kinds of approaches. So that wraps up our podcast for the. First half of the year. And like I said earlier, if you want to reach out to me, I am still going to be doing other work. I’m still going to be in contact. I’m not disappearing. I would like to unplug from everything, but it’s just really not a possible thing right now. So reach out to me at theh-r.com at the contact page. You can write to me through messages or on the post at. At the Instagram page for the Sage Arts podcast. And if you receive a newsletter, you can respond directly to it and that will get to me as well. And if you don’t get the newsletter again, go to the homepage of the sagearts.com and click on the news and notices button to get that newsletter, which I don’t send out very often. I do not like to pester people, so you have to worry about it. Any news for anything else or hearing anything but. News about the podcast or. I guess me, I think River’s in there once too, so maybe a little adjacent things going on, but. In any case, all of these links we’ve talked about, including how to get to Kathleen’s Instagram page and go check out her artwork, all the links I mentioned can be found in the show notes or description section of wherever you’re listening to. This podcast from. OK, so I’m not gonna drag this on any longer. It’s a bit of a longer episode this time, but if you just listen to the episode, then you know why. So hopefully it’s left you with lots to think of over the summer, so get out there and experience and find new things and novel things to feed your muse. Stay true to your weirdness as always, and I’ll see you back here in two or three months on the Sage Arts podcast.
