Ep.049 Define Your Success w/guest co-host Brett Varon

How do you define success for yourself as a creative? Is success even something you want to be thinking about? In this enlightening conversation, Brett and I dig down into the concept of success, the various ways to measure it, the deceptive goal of happiness, and how to track your version of success so that you can be and feel truly, well, successful in your creative life.

Contact my guest:

Brett Varon: www.instagram.com/brett.varon/

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CREDITS:

Cover design by Sage; Illustration by Olga Kostenko

Cover art by Brett Varon

Music by Playsound

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Transcript

Transcription (AI transcribed, unedited. Please excuse the copious errors.)

We’ll feel like. A failure if we don’t achieve things.

Nice. That’s quite an irony, yeah.

In those areas. But if we have an idea of what success really is to us, we have those to kind of hold on to and say I have succeeded here. Even if I haven’t succeeded over here.

Fabulously successful creatives out there. Thank you for joining me on the Sage Arts. Podcast this is sad. And for today’s? Episode. I’m not going to be alone, I. Have well I. Had, I should say I had Brett and Amber. In the room. With me, as you will hear in just a moment. But as often is the case, I do the introduction last so I can add in any news or notices that might be of interest at the last moment. But yeah, this is. So last moment because I am like so late getting this one out and I apologize, I was laid out with I don’t even know what it was very, very strange. There’s probably some kind of digestive system bug flu. I was nauseous. Nothing ever happened from that, but I was so achy and I was so stiff I couldn’t move. And then it’s been several days of recovering from that, so being able to sit down and edit a podcast was literally impossible, which is weird for me because I will I I’m the worst sick person in the world. I will not sit down and just lay and take care of myself and rest. I always have to do something, but I did nothing. I couldn’t even watch TV. I just put on a audiobook and listen to that the entire time. That’s all I could. Do so. Yeah this. One woman production got a little behind. So because this is running late and I don’t want to put this off any longer than necessary, this is going to be a really short introduction. Usually I give you some information about how. To contact me. So all I’m. Going to say is.

Sagearts.com or the description section or show notes section from whatever you listen to this podcast and to find out how to contact may reach me. Tell me your stories. All that kind of stuff. And if you want to support PayPal or buy the coffee, buttons are available at the sagearts.com homepage, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. All this can also be heard at the end of the podcast, which is safe for those people who kind of buzz through. Beginning, so no further preamble. We’re going to jump into the conversation that Brett and I had about the ideas of success, and if you did want to have some questions in your mind as you listen to. Our conversation the real. One question you need is what is your definition of success? Or even is success. The idea of some kind of success important to me. In my creative endeavors, so have those in mind as we get into this conversation with Brett and I. So yeah, I have Brett with me today. I haven’t even thought about my intro.

You haven’t thought.

About what? My intro. Ohh.

OK, this could be the intro. I think this is a really solid intro so far. How do you guys like it out there? You guys like this?

We’ve had a long week.

We’re a little tired, but we’re like on the 11th hour of time to squeeze this in for when I scheduled us to have a podcast record. But yeah, Brett hasn’t been on for a while. Hi, Brett. Hi. How have you been?

How’s it going? Terrible. Mostly no, I’m not.

Terrible. No it can’t. Be terrible.

I’ve been good, been busy.

Yeah. Yeah. And Amber’s here today, too. Amber, how are you doing? It’s like this bed needs something. Nope. Nope, Nope, it’s good. All right. Well, Amber’s good. Brett’s good. I’m doing OK. No, I’m good. It’s just it’s just a really busy few weeks. And, you know, holidays are always like this for.

Well, when it’s when. It’s busy. It’s it’s hard to slow down and sort of, you know, check in with ourselves, you know, and just do, do, do. If you keep making that list so long, long, long it, it just doesn’t ever end. Not you. But anybody. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. There’s like this kind. Of inertia.

About to say he’s talking about me. Is I have a literal to do? List on my phone.

It’s it’s never ending. It’s like the Infinity. Mirror it just keeps going.

And you know. I was like. It’s really long. He’s like, yeah, and.

I show him he’s like, ohh, that’s really long.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that’s crazy. But you do do so many important things and you know. It’s all it all. Works, but there needs to be the time made too for the non list time. Yeah, I just coined that. Go down in history this week we did.

The the novelist time I know. Yeah. No, that’s good. We had some non list time this past weekend, so. In any case, we are here. We’re managing to get together and talk to you all about something that we’ve been discussing on and off for a little while because as we kind of change up what we’re doing for ourselves as artists individually like myself, I’ve been trying to get back into painting and Brett is looking at, you know, eventually someday may or may not be working in the animation industry and what he’s going to be doing for himself personally. The subject matter that really kind of I don’t. Know coalesced out of that was success. How do you measure success? Do you need to measure success? What does that mean? Why does it? You know, why is it important? What does it mean to different people? And I think a lot of artists, especially maybe newer artists, maybe I I think I I know it was my. Myself, as an artist coming out of art school, there’s an idea about what do I do with what I’ve learned and I’ve got to go talk to the gallery people. And I’ve gotta, like, make X amount of pieces and I’ve gotta be able to show them. And I’ve gotta, you know, whatever. And then of course, I didn’t do any of that, but. Not immediately, because it wasn’t what I wanted. It wasn’t what I needed. And so I think the idea of understanding what your version of success is or should be, and it’s going to change throughout your life should. Be something that’s kind of consciously decided. For you to be able to make goals. I think you know. A lot of people think that success can only be measured by like sales monetarily, right by the. Money made, or at least. The recognition of one’s. Of course, these are fair measures of success, but I think only under certain conditions are they important or or should they apply because The thing is, someone could make a lot of money or get a lot of recognition and still not be successful in a way they need it to be for themselves to not to feel successful in what they’re doing, to be happy and what they’re doing. And I think it’s really important to know what success means to you for yourself and your artwork, or maybe more specifically what it needs to mean in order for you to get what you need and desire out of your creative work. By making sense so. Far, does that sound right?

Yeah, I think so. It’s that’s intricate, but. That’s good. I said that’s the way I rolled out.

Yeah, you know, I mean I would add to it that success can mean opposite things at the same time, to me like I know that’s confusing, but it may mean one thing to me one day and another thing to me, another day, you know, because it’s. Very mutable. It’s not. So when I make a decision, I try to prioritize. Which version of success matters more to me?

And when I’m more externally oriented. I feel like I, you know towards like the validation that drives me in a certain way and I can produce, you know, the deadlines to create more of a an urgent situation. You know, so it pulls it out of us more, you know.

Externally, like the validation were things that come to you externally, OK. Yeah, right. Yeah, for sure. And then your personal work.

So there’s that. Kind of. And then the the personal work is coming from a a different place because there’s no external immediate external validation available. It’s like you reach for it, but it’s not there. It’s just you maybe posted on an Instagram page or you show a friend, which is nice version of it.

And that leads me to thinking, OK, well, my version of success is really appreciating just the process. Success to me is just doing it because I love to do it and not concerning myself with the outcome. But that’s a hard thing to achieve. I think in some ways because it’s hard.

To to not want it. To be a really. Good expression of your. Sure, a pure expression of your pure little idealistic. But I want to get out of my own way to do.

Good work, you know.

Right. I think we all would like outside validation. You know, but because I can’t imagine anyone going. No, nobody. Look at me. Working nobody. Tell me it’s good. Nobody tell me you like it, you know.

Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s connected to the the sort of survival instinct we have to to belong, to be included, to be acknowledged as a role like we all need, like with the dog pack, they all have a, don’t they all have like a role they play in the?

Right. To be accepted. Right. Ohh yeah depending on yeah.

You know it’s the same thing here. It’s like we all like, OK, I’m an artist. Am I achieving that for? The for the group.

Do we have value? For the pack. Yeah, are are we invaluable. So we’re not left behind or.

So we don’t get destroyed. I mean, I think on some kind of like really your base level. Yeah, yeah, left behind. Or so there’s a a strong sort of survivalist drive to that version of success. So I have that.

Don’t get to eat or yeah, yes.

That’s deep in US, yeah.

Sure. And then I have the other version which. More I just did a thing and I wasn’t judging it as I did it, and I ignored and we were talking. We tuned out all the external sort of voices and things that influenced me, critical or pleasing a fan or, you know, that kind. Of stuff. Placing value on those things instantly takes me out of the experience.

Yeah, I can have a very big downside. Yeah.

It’s like the iceberg. So what I’ve been thinking about is disciplining, doing like meditations to discipline myself. I almost see it as a skill to redirect my mind when those negative voices come in and they have no place in the creative process. That is how I would try to define my version of. The success that I prioritize because I don’t want to say it’s just one kind of success is I just don’t think that’s true. I think there’s more to it.

Ohh yeah, it’s interesting way to to to look at it. Amber Amber seems very excited about this she got.

Yeah, just kind.

Up and was like what?

Just getting up and turning around.

Or she’s just unsettled by.

And that’s her version of success for this moment, right? Yeah. So my joints don’t hurt.

My success? She’s finding a comfortable.

Spot on his bed. Are you good? Are you?

Good. Ohh, there’s a there’s a tail wag alright. So kind of the first thing I really wanted to talk about was the question of whether success. Needs to be a focus, like the whole idea of like, what is my success? What is my version of success? What do I need for success? Is that something that needs to be part of the structure of ones creative life, whether it’s validation from an outside source or from people close to you or just for yourself? Is that a necessary thing? Do you think to have in your consciousness? Like should should we have that word in there?

No, I didn’t. That’s. Yeah, it kind of makes me feel like no, really. Because the version. Of success is when I’m not thinking about anything, being a success in the moment it’s it’s just doing something.

I think for some people, yes, I’m thinking for people who are very goal oriented, who want to see milestones reached and and want to have something to show for what they’re doing. I think for some people that’s import. And then for other people, maybe not so much. And then also you brought up an interesting point as you started into this, that depends on what kind of work. You’re doing if. It’s your career in the animation studios, and that’s one type of thing that you’ll measure success by. Like, can I pay? My bills.

For instance, or do I get into the position I want or do I get on the show that I want? And then there’s your personal work, which is a very different approach and a very different feel for you in terms of what you. Need out of it. So we could say some people need a certain type of success. Or need to be. Able to define success, but then we can also say that each person, depending on what they’re doing, because I don’t know many artists only do one thing like they have different types of creative things that they do. Depending on what you’re doing, who you are, what point you are in your life.

There are always.

Or career or whatever it is that you’re trying to measure that is going to be different, right. And whether success is something you want to even. Focus on that might even be a question. Do I want this word to be in my mind in my consciousness?

I guess everyone’s got to look at how we. Were taught success when we were kids.

That’s true. I mean, our upbringing, yeah.

You know what? Did our parents say to us, what did our grandparents say to us, you know, and those messages are just there. Then when we get older, we think it’s us, but it’s not us.

Those of us who went to art school or made a very kind of formal change to become an artist, like, did you get that when you were? Young like, well, how? You gonna make?

A living cause, you.

Went we both went to art school. Like straight out of high school. You know, my dad asked. This question how you going to make a living?

Yeah, how you made? Your dad was very. Different than my dad in that way. My dad’s very, you know. Course value, you know, values that idea to deliver to the child. You know, like in a way. But he didn’t make me. He didn’t give me that message or my mom didn’t either. That is great. I think it’s really lucky. The other messages maybe I got that weren’t so good that I.

That’s great.

Still have to. Work through but.

Yeah, we all get this right.

But this that particular one. Was it like the hands on the hip? Why? Are you gonna make a living at it? It was just like, oh, he wants to do that. And there actually weren’t a lot. Of jobs in. Animation available at the time this was a while ago so.

At the. My father is a professor in economics, a very pragmatic. Yeah. So he definitely asked the question. He didn’t discourage us. That was one thing because his first two kids went to art school. And he did ask the question how you going to make a living at it. But at the same time, he didn’t say you can’t do that, but being pragmatic, we got a lot of that.

Yeah, very, very pragmatic. And knew the way. Of the world that way, yes. Yeah, yeah.

Message of what are you going to do? How are you going to do it and what is your version of success? So my dad did measure and was very adamant about whether we were successful, whether we got the good grades and that kind of thing.

And there’s that’s not a bad message, but you can put so much emphasis on it. The the the exclusion of your, your voice, or your experience of life like we’re taught to disregard our experience, our subjective experience, and pay attention to survival, you know.

Exclusion of other things, yeah.

How you going? To make money. And those are important things. So when you do so much of that and not any of the other or even acknowledge the other exists.

Yeah. Check these boxes. Yeah.

That’s not good.

Well, you’re.

Because then as an artist, you’re especially.

Yeah. I mean, as far as creative things, I mean, I suppose in other industries, that’s great. That’s fantastic. You really need that. You can really, you know, go places that with like you know, if you’re in sales for instance or management or any kind of business or.

Or whatever. There’s certain things of like leveling up that you’re constantly doing and not that you don’t level up in creative work either. But our focus, our mental being, our mental, I don’t know, zone needs to allow us to reach into the subconsciousness, into our creativity, into our child side and then and all that. So it can probably. Pull away from that. If it’s way too. Focused on that kind of thing. So and then there’s just the idea that whether you want to call it success or not, I think it’s important to recognize that just creating art because you enjoy the process or the outcome is something that has value in and of itself and that. Is actually probably. Maybe going to be for some people a way of measuring success, but you could not have success be a word as part of your creative life’s construct.

I mean, you can but. You just maybe ignore it. Because it’s it’s, you know it. Crosses our minds. Go ahead. Sorry.

But yeah, but all I’m saying is that if you want to look at is like, I am just going to create art because I enjoy it. I enjoy. The process I. Enjoy what I make. And that’s it. That’s all I want to think about and not think about the word. Success. I think you could do. That, but for the rest of us. Who want to define some kind of success? And I think it’s helpful to have a definition of success in what you need out of your creative work in order that you aren’t just disappointed when things don’t happen. When you have expectations of things happening and they don’t happen. That you can look at. Well, what is your definition? What is it that you need out of it? And knowing that consciously can really help get through some of those harder times when we’re trying to get into shows or we’re trying to get representation, we’re trying to. Sell things or. We’re just trying to create from a unique place from our, you know, find our own voice. And if we’re having a rough time with that. Then maybe we’ll feel like a failure if we don’t achieve things in those.

Right. Areas that’s quite an.

Irony. Yeah, but if we have an idea of what success really is to us and it’s sometimes going to be multiple things that we have those to kind of hold on to and say I have succeeded here, even if I haven’t succeeded over here, I think it’s good to consciously have an understanding of. Of yourself in that way. So I went through online and read articles about artists talking about their success and being interviewed about what success is for them and breakdown some of the different ways that people measure success for themselves as as artists. So. Jumping on any of these bread as I as I list them all. Of course one of the the number one ones #1 ones is money sales employments. Getting into the art shows where you can sell your work, that kind of thing. So a lot of people say if I can, if I can successfully sell my art on a regular basis, then I’m a success. And of course, people think. Outwardly, people will. See you as a success if you’re. Calling right.

And do you value that? I mean it’s natural to. Value that I mean it’s well.

Most of us need to value that a.

Little bit so we can keep working.

It’s it’s natural, but it shouldn’t be the priority, you know, unless you’re trying to make a living at it. And then in a way it it, it changes the art in a way.

Right, right. Well, yeah. But then is that success as an artist or success as as?

What success as a business? From the business aspect, you want to make the money so that you have a business that can continue and grow and that you can pay for all your back end cost for your materials for your time, for the booth cost if you’re going.

Yeah, yeah. Means, yeah.

To shows all stuff.

So that can easily change the creative, you know, experience, you know when. You sit and you try. You got to tune out all that stuff to do something of worth, and that’s ironic. Because all those. Voices of the influences, the people we want to please or whatever hoops.

For the shows you want to get in those shows want.

We want. For the.

To sell this for.

Hard. You know, you’ve got to distinguish like.

And acknowledge that that. Is going to be a of an influence of drive, but then the skill of putting it aside and just saying I’m just doing this. It’s almost like changing. I don’t know gears or atmospheres or something, you know.

It’s I think it’s like shifting positions like when I am just creating, I’m just going to be an artist. I’m not going to be a selling artist. I’m not going.

To be a successful.

And it it’s just, it’s so freeing, it’s just so freeing. I think when we were.

Artist, I’m not.

Kids who are sitting there thinking I want.

To be, well, maybe some of this. Were I mean, I I drew I of course I.

Wanted people to see is that excitement of what you want to do? The cartoons like you saw on TV? Yeah, but when you work, if you can be an.

You know that kind of stuff? Yeah.

Artist when you work and you. Can be a business person.

When you sell and can you separate those two?

Do both that you you kind of have to otherwise you you can see it in the work if it’s. Business oriented. You can just kind of. See the influences.

Well, well, then it’s not a matter of. Have to it’s a. Matter of choosing that. That’s how you. Want to do? It because you don’t have to, but you would you sacrifice some of your own authentic voice? Potentially. In your work or maybe. Even your enjoyment of it, because it becomes more of a a task and more of a job than it is.

Well, if you’re doing things that you’re not feeling, then yeah, I think the priority should be, is this a joy to make is this? Something that, and not everything you do is going to be a joy to make for whatever reason, but I usually find that I have to free myself up a lot before drawing, you know, just freely. Because I do, you know, structure drawing, you know, for work and whatnot. And and I love it all. It’s like I’m endless quest of bringing my personal voice to it. But.

No, no. Yeah. For work. Yeah, yeah.

Using, they’re using and then using techniques.

Work and to your personal work, yeah.

Yeah, that things that fine tune and scope, something to make it a better version of what comes from me, if that makes sense.

And fulfilling and fulfilling for you, I mean, I think that’s what you’re after, right? If this is fulfilling for me, whether it’s for the studio, for whether it’s for me. Personally, but yeah.

Fulfilling for me in the.

Moment and you hope that’s valued.

Yeah, yeah. And and and I guess that’s really what we’re talking we’re talking about value like, what’s valuable to you versus what’s valuable to somebody else or like for you, what’s valuable to your? To your boss.

You know what you do, but if you have a business and you’re selling artwork and you bring that kind of business mind into the studio. I think sometimes it’s going to be hard to separate it and if your priority is selling because you’re putting food on the table and you’re paying your bills and you’re raising your kids, then you might have to set aside. You know, I need to just be an artist when I’m in the studio.

I think it’s a synergy between those two, the.

I ideally right, but ideal isn’t always.

It’s a crazy I yeah. Possible. Well, I don’t know if it’s impossible to. To be conscious of the pressure of achieving something, you can put food on the table and feed your kids and also the importance of being unencumbered by any of those. Those thoughts? Yeah, because there’s an irony to that because to let go and not think about those thoughts is the very thing you need to do to create the thing that will be what the world will see as a success. Employee with health.

No, no, I. Don’t think that’s necessarily true. I mean, I think I and you and I actually agree on. Completely that if you can allow yourself to just let go of all that stuff and just let your child side come through, that you will have better work. Now. We both believe that I don’t think it’s necessary is what I’m kind of getting at like like you can decide that you will sacrifice some of your authentic voice in order to feel more secure.

Oh, let’s see what you’re saying. Well.

In your sales, for instance, feel like I’m going to follow more trends. I’m going to think about what people want to buy and I’m going to make. Those things like. Hey man, when I was a working artist, I did that. I made a lot of stuff. I didn’t love. But I knew would sell. I would make just enough of those I knew I would sell out on these certain. Things I would. Make, but you make them cause you know that will pay for your booth and for your travel and for your lodging and whatever else while you’re traveling to show. And so you’re like, OK, I’ll sell these gimmicky things. That I know people will love. I know that will cover my costs and then I would make other stuff. You know, I make stuff I knew would sell, but I still was kind. Of me and I. Enjoyed it and then I would always have a few pieces that were kind of out there. There are just some things that I liked to do then there was just something I was trying and something new and I did find that those things that I always felt was a little out there and every single time I was like, I don’t know if I’m gonna sell these and every single time. I would sell them. I definitely believe in you. Put just yourself into your work and do just what you want and do the things that make you happy and that you like, that you will have work that will sell. Now you got to have the right market. You have to be at the right place like you could do that, but go to you know if you make like, I don’t know. Very stuff. But then you go to the Smithsonian Art show. It’s really probably that’s not your market. You’re probably not gonna sell a lot. But if you go to Comic Con, you’re you’re going to be this. This stuff’s gonna be flying out the doors.

It’s just good business advice.

You know, so. So there’s that. But OK. So yeah, sales is something that we use a lot to measure success and we believe that other people will be measuring it that way. And I think a lot of people do outside of our.

And is it ever, is it ever enough? Is it ever enough, right, more and more? Where does it end, you know?

Ohh fair enough. Maybe, maybe, maybe not I.

Don’t know. Like you think. What’s is there something at the end of the tunnel that you’d be in? I guess museums, I guess that’s. Pretty, pretty cool. Like as far as like, where? What’s the end game in success?

Oh, you mean like you like selling? Well, then that brings up the next one because I have all these all these bullet points you always you you like. Read my mind. The next one is recognition and awards for a lot of people. They feel like they can’t be successful unless they’re getting awards. Being first place at a show being published in magazines.

Yeah, that’s a sort of being raised on getting trophies for soccer and baseball and stuff. But yeah, it’s like you get an acknowledgement and.

That’s that symbol of security or survival. You. You belong to the pack. And I’m not putting that down because that’s that’s that’s really. That’s absolutely but.

Yeah, it it feels good, yeah.

Yeah, I have a whole bunch.

It’s. It shouldn’t be. Yeah. No, it feels good.

Of my awards. And ribbons and stuff. In the studio just to be. Yeah, I was a pretty decent.

Artist. They’re like chapters of your life being commemorated with. This, you know, social construct sort of approval, you know or acceptance better word than approval.

Yeah, yeah. But for a lot of people, they’re not successful until they’ve reached that and I kind of wonder, like, when we were in art school. It wasn’t a huge thing, but I feel like these days there’s so much pressure, so much outward pressure from people that I’ve talked to that were newer that in art school. They’re talking about how to get into the various award programs or various big shows. Or getting into the galleries or getting publication or, you know, yeah. And there’s tons of emerging artists awards that are out there that you can go after and that way you can put it on your CD and be like, this is what I’ve done. You know, just straight out of school and all that stuff, which is fantastic and wonderful. And I feel like there’s no reason not to chase that stuff other than if that becomes the end, all be all.

They’re being very business minded.

Is that you’re chasing recognition and awards. Then you may be losing your voice again because you’re thinking about what these judges and people want.

Yeah, and and it goes right down it well potentially. I’m not a therapist, but it seems like, you know, there’s the things that drive us from our childhood. What we, the things, the messages we get and how they carry over into into the blue systems that we have around.

It could be. Yeah, exactly. It so we got money, we got recognition and. Which put representation publications separately, but that’s recognition. And then you may judge success by just having the time and freedom to do what you want and explore. So that would be a certain point in your creative. Career where you don’t have to feel like you have to do what other people are doing. You don’t have to follow a trend you don’t feel like you. Need to figure. Out what will please the jury at a particular show or how to get into publication by doing something that these publications are looking for now because whatever it is that you need to be doing. To make the money or get the recognition so you can get the sales and all that stuff. If you can do what you want to do. Without any of that stuff being part of your consideration. You just do what? You want and people will buy it. So that’s one aspect to this point of success, of having all the time and freedom to do what you want. But it could also be just having a certain life. That allows that for. Finding the priority and the time in your life to do whatever you want to do could be a a kind of success. Like maybe you can’t be a full time artist, you just don’t have the ability financially to do that. So you prioritize art and you end up setting enough time aside for yourself to have that. Freedom. Some people that may be a goal in and of itself is to just have enough time to do the work they want without having to consider how they’re going to make the money to pay for the materials, or how are they going to afford the time away from work or whatever. So if you can position your life in such a way as to give yourself the freedom and the time, that could be. Another way of saying I’m successful as an artist that could be someones particular definition of it. When I was coaching artists, that was.

Biggest things I worked on. With people was. Just getting into the studio on a regular basis and getting work done. So finding the time amongst family and children and other jobs they wanted to, but for some reason a lot of times kind of a psychological preset that other things are going to be more important. The laundry was more important. The cleaning the house is more important. Checking in on friends, all these things that are important on a certain level. But you can’t do everything. So you have to prior. Privatized. If art is important to you, if your creative life is important to you, then setting that time aside should become a priority. If you manage to figure that out and my word of the year is balanced, if you can balance your personal life with your creative life with your work life, if you have that as well. So just getting into the studio on a regular basis could be a version of success. For you personal milestones like mastering a skill or completing a larger difficult piece, or creating a particularly memorable work for family or friends, like for you, I think maybe right now a milestone would be picking a personal project to do and finishing it to complete. So cause you have things that you keep, you know you’ve been talking about these various things that you’ve been working on.

Something I need to contend with. It’s something that I’m figuring out.

It’s something that you want at some point. Yeah. You think? And this is something.

Something that I think I want. I have wanted.

To figure out. In and of itself is like you know. Knowing what you want.

My main focus is to enjoy what I do and not make it something that. Is like crafted to the point so everyone will be impressed with you know this that or the other. But when I see value in nice shapes, appealing colors and that’s the pursuit, I want to be on, not the I want to impress people because I’m used to having an audience with my professional so.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s true and that. Makes it a little tricky choosing what.

To do and. And feeling motivated to finish the work. But if you did finish something like we’ve talked about you’re doing, you’re doing maybe a children’s book or a comic. If you did complete them, that would be success for you to have followed through and and finish something outside. Of the studio. Work you don’t.

It would be a certain success for. Sure. And I’ve done some but and how far do I need to take it? You know is really the question before I deem it a success.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but as far as like the individual, like, how do I feel like I’m a success as an art? When you do have personal milestones like you do have something that you feel a piece is particularly successful. That in itself can be like I’m successful because I set myself a challenge in my work and I met it. And so I think that in itself can be a success and you can call yourself a. Success because you’re. Able to do that and I think some people feel that they’re successful as an artist if they’re influencing other artists, if they’re teaching, if they’re seeing other people emulate them or asking them to teach or asking them questions about their how they’ve done their work. When you see other people. Looking to you as an artist, it’s. It’s definitely validating in ways that you don’t get from just getting into a gallery or whatnot. Other people seeing your work, other artists, seeing your work, especially if the arts is so much a part of you to see other artists coming up kind of in your footsteps, I think it’s it’s, it’s exciting. And for some people that is going to be. A major part of. Calling themselves a successful artist, I think for a lot of people just having the chance to show or. Share their work with others. Whether it’s through a show or through a gallery or in a coffee shop, or having a a marketplace online, an Etsy shop or whatever, that just being able to share it, getting to that point where they have enough work and enough courage to put it out there can give you a great feeling of success. And then there’s also being able to execute one’s artwork. With a minimal amount of struggle. Like feeling like. Your skills have gotten to a point where you can just make whatever comes in your head. Mm-hmm. I mean, I think there’s always gonna be struggle. I can’t imagine artwork without struggle. And I think if you’re making artwork and there isn’t a struggle at some point that. You’re probably missing out on all. Kinds of opportunities to grow as an artist, right?

That’s why it’s good to learn the skills and then be. Creative with them.

Well, yeah, like people who don’t work on their skill set will constantly be struggling if they’re not trying to improve.

Or they’ll call it a style and leave it at that. You know it’s a pure expression, you know.

Well, yeah, but it but. If that’s true, if that’s all you need and you don’t feel like you’re struggling at. That point.

Then you maybe you’re good. Makes sense, yeah.

Then you’re then you’re in a good spot.

For yourself, you were.

Able to sit down and make what you want to make like you have images in your head. There’s things that you want to create. There’s things in the world. That you’re inspired by and you want to be able to recreate that. In your way in the studio. If the struggle is fairly minimal, I think you can call that a success because you have raised your skill level and your approach to a point where you can just focus on the creativity. I think for some people that could be a version of success and then also having the ability to tune out everything else. And just dropping the flow and I think it kind of goes back to the idea of like just being able to sit down and work on the art as an artist and not be thinking about the. Things and stuff.

Nothing about anything, all that stuff.

But yeah, it’s not think about anything. But getting into. Flow for some people is hard to not be distracted by everything else, to not have constant thoughts about like ohh, I’ve got the laundry to do and actually I do have the laundry to do. Shoot. Yeah. Or the bills to pay or whatever else is going on in one’s life to be able to put those things aside can be really difficult for some people.

You can’t focus on on the moment.

Yeah. So some people might want to count that as success. Being able to just get into flow on a regular basis if it’s been. Something they’ve struggled with before. So those are all the things that I was reading from all these various artists and stuff, the way they were trying to define success for them and most of them were not the successful artists. I don’t know if this is just cause they already made their money. Most of them were not defining their success by money or recognition. Almost none of them said that. I think once you have something, it’s harder to.

Think of it in those terms. Is like is that my success anymore? Because then. You have to move on to the next thing if you manage to make money at being an artist or you manage to get recognition. So for instance, when I was a working artist and I started selling and I made myself a goal 1 to get into this huge art show that like 80,000 person show and then I got in there. I was like great, I got in the show, you know, that’s the peak of all of my applications for. Those and then I decided, OK, I want to win best in category. So I was doing mostly jewelry art at the time. So I gave myself A5 year goal in five years. I want to get best in jewelry I got in three years crazy. So but what happened was when I hit that. I was like, OK, there’s that. Goal now what do I do? You have to have another goal after that.

It’s not. It’s not the end all, and it’s a version of success. That’s great.

But then I got depressed after that because I had. Hit my goal really early. I thought I had years. I was gonna be still working on. This and struggling so when I got that then I was like OK what do I? You now you know where. Where? What’s my next mountain, you know?

Yeah, I see. So you had to kind of discover that, yeah.

Yeah. And that’s when I ended up doing the magazine.

Because I was like, OK, what am I going to do next? And I was like, oh, well, I could go to bigger shows, but I was already having a hard time keeping up with what I was doing, didn’t have any help. And my stuff was pretty intricate thinking of scaling up was scary for me. I’m like, I don’t know. If I can do. That I don’t know if I’m gonna run myself ragged. I didn’t want to lose my social life. I didn’t want to lose my family time and then I thought I could do wholesale, but then you’re making the same thing over and over again. I’ve never been good at. It just being a factory and then I thought, well, what can I do? Well, I write and I’ve done publishing and I’ve worked in magazines and I’m doing art. And I’m like polymer could use a magazine. And that’s how that happened. So that was my next goal. Then to have a successful magazine, which I did for 10 years and I.

Incredible. Yeah. Incredible.

I feel that that was enough of a. Success in the various markers for that. And then what was next? So next was, you know, podcasting.

Yes, your your your ability to to recognize what you need to do next, or figure out what you need to do next is really clear in. Your mind, you know you.

Well, it’s always going to.

Were clear that you didn’t know. What to do? And you figured it out.

No, but it. The fact that I wasn’t prepared to not. Though you know I’m very goal oriented right and reaching a goal is a mode of success. It’s kind of an endpoint with success, right? It’s not that I needed to be successful in any way from an outside validation point, but I needed to be doing things that were challenging for me and that were interesting for me and that were intriguing.

For me and to keep me going and keep me motivated, you know the reason I got depressed after that one show was because I didn’t know what else to do. I didn’t feel motivated by anything. Cause I’d. Hit those goals. And you know, I knew what my next potential steps were, but none of them interested me.

So in a way, what you’re saying, it was kind of?

A let down. No, it wasn’t a let down. That’s not the word for it. It showed me that success.

Was never a. Never going to be a one time thing like, yes, I’m going to. I’m never going to reach the peak of the mountain and that’s it. And who wants to like and and I don’t know if it’s around that time or similar.

It was transitory then. Yeah, that’s that’s.

The time frame that I really started thinking about what it meant to be. Happy. What is happiness? We’re all chasing happiness. We’re all trying to be happy and content and have all these things we think that will make us feel fulfilled and make our lives wonderful. And I realize that happiness was never going to be the thing that I actually wanted. Like we go after happiness. But if you. Managed to be happy. In a very short period of time, you wouldn’t let me illustrate this a little better. Than that stupid. Comment if you got everything that you wanted you. Would it be bored? You would have nothing to get up for in the morning. You have nothing to be motivated for, so you get everything that you want. You know, like when people win the lottery and they think. Their life is going to be easy, easy.

For happiness is a sense of purpose and a sense of pursuit. Yes, I agree.

Yes, yes. And so I started making this statement to people when they would ask me or we would talk about being happy or whatnot. I said they never want to be happy because if I am just straight up happy or if I’m just straight. Up content if. If if that’s all I have. Then I am not going to feel fulfilled. I’m not going to feel excited. I’m not going to feel challenged. So any of those bigger things or like, if I have this, I’m going to be happy. You’re. Not you’ll be. Happy in the moment like. I was happy at that show. I felt great. At that show. That whole weekend was fantastic. It was a very fulfilling show for me. But afterwards, because after you got down off of that high from being getting that kind of recognition and validation, there wasn’t anything else I was like, OK, now I’m gonna go back and just keep doing shows. And I did for like, another year. I kept doing shows the same way I was doing it, but I was searching for that next thing. I just need something to motivate me. I need something. To to say I am doing something worthwhile while I’m here. You know.

And it’s not. Latching on to 1 version of success and holding on to it till the end of time for you.

It is like. There’s a metaphor that I heard saying about a shark, you know, always moving forward and you know, otherwise they die, you know, you know, they keep moving. And that is new for sure and.

Ohh yeah yeah, they have to.

Keep moving. Yeah, yeah. That’s me.

I think it’s. All of us to a degree, but some of us are a little more resistant to constant change.

But you can look at all these definitions of success. All these artists who said all these different things and what it really came down to is that there’s very there is various little markers in our life that make us feel that what we’re doing is worthwhile and. Billing and it’s not usually going to be one thing, it’s not going. To be just. Selling your work or just getting into that one big show or just getting this award or just getting published or just being recognized by the people that you want to be recognized by or just being happy in your own little space and doing your own little thing. It’s usually a multitude of those things. So we’re going to have multiple things that mean success for us, not just because we’re constantly changing, but because there are so many aspects to the idea of feeling successful and fulfilled in our own version that I think we need to constantly reevaluate what it is that we’re doing. And I think there’s a couple of steps that we need to take in terms of how we look at success and what we do with our version. You know how we define it. So I just wanted to kind of outline 4 things I think are important to do to keep four more things. Just four things I know I’ve lists on my list. Four things to keep in mind when you’re looking at the role the success plays in your life, and I think for one, you need to define and redefine your version of success on a regular basis because your needs will change throughout your life. The type of work that you’re doing will change throughout your. And those focuses that you have, like I said, like these successful artists are like, they’re not focusing anymore on making money or getting into shows. Those aren’t their version of success anymore where you are in your life, how much time? You have basically. What is you need out of your art is going to continue to change. So you want to be open to defining and redefining it on a regular basis. And then secondly, continuously set and reset goals, which is kind of the same thing. So you decide this is what success is to you. Success is selling enough to make it your full time job, if that’s the. Case then you. Need goals like specific goals, I think. And then you. Work towards that and you kind of assume that’s going to happen on. Your timeline and. Then you’re more likely to succeed. Something when you have a vision of it happening down the road, have goals. Set them, reset them as you need. Changes and then if you reach them or you lose enthusiasm for them, you go back to step one and define them and redefine them, and then reset your goals again, you know, so you’re you want those to always it it is and it is a process that the main thing is you always want something that’s motivating you. So if it’s not motivating you anymore because.

Full circle. Maybe that’s a a cycle or a process.

One you already did it, so it’s not fair to motivate you anymore or two, you’re just not really excited by those goals anymore, just for you to. The main thing is to have something to work towards. So yeah, and then and you’ve already been saying this, so realize that there’s no ultimate final goal. As an artist, you follow your passion. It’s really a lifelong affair. You don’t decide I’m going to do XY and Z and then I’m going to.

That makes sense.

Not do art anymore once I’ve reached. The pinnacle of my art career, as I see. It now if you are. A internally driven artist especially. You know, if the passion is there regardless, like if you would do this, whether you were paid for it or not, if if you would do this if. No one. Ever. Saw it. You’re going. To be doing it the rest of your life.

Yeah, it’s a. It’s a way to quench your curiosity and your purpose of doing our yeah.

Doing the artwork and yeah, cause it’s that’s that internal curiosity. If it’s always there, you’re gonna. Just get used.

Do it whether it’s.

To the fact that. You’re always going to be doing this.

Whether and that’s the success in it of its. Self you know. So whether you do it for money or not, either way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you realize it is a lifelong affair and that you’re constantly be changing your goals, then you’re you’re. You’re open to that ride, man. You could. You’re ready to keep. Keep going down there. Just have to keep looking for those things. They’re gonna motivate you and and get you excited about the work. And then. And we started, I think, actually, I think this is how we started about. Talking about this conversation, I wanted to talk about living in the moment. I think one of the things that you need to do is to when you’re working to live in the moment, enjoy your creativity, get yourself into the flow, explore, discover like a child would. Or like a dog would. I am so inspired by watching her get excited about whatever like she sees a squirrel. It’s like the first time she’s ever seen a. Squirrel, it’s this amazing thing. I gotta. Go. I gotta go talk to it. I gotta check it out. You.

Know right? But it’s like just to.

See how excited they are by these things and children are like that as well. When they do artwork, they’re just like woo, you know.

That’s the downfall of being too goal oriented, because if you’re constantly thinking about goals, you’re never in the moment.

If the goal is the. End all be all.

Of what you do, yeah.

Then it loses you.

Know you. You’re not in the moment as as much potentially that could be.

A problem you’re talking about mentally existing in the future, which is a problem because you can’t live in the moment. If you’re thinking about what’s going to happen in the future all the time but you.

Yeah, I think that’s. For the past.

Need to think about the future. You know you need to be. Pondering like what am I going to be doing down the line?

What the future is like, people would say the future. Is an illusion, right?

We’re not gonna get into that philosophical.

This podcast does not include it’s true quantum physics.

Yeah, sorry. I I crossed the boundary.

Yeah, but no. I mean, yes, there there is. And that’s a quandary because.

All we can do is here, now, right?

Well, the only thing that we know is what’s here and now we can’t count on anything. If you put your faith in the moment more than you put your faith or everything balanced on something that hasn’t happened. Then you’re probably going to be happier because you just let yourself be in the moment because that is literally all. You know that you have.

I think being in the moment isn’t necessarily like people are terrified to be in the moment. They want to keep busy and occupy their mind.

It’s true. I I believe that is true. I still think that people would be happier if they existed in the moment more often. Yeah. You can’t do it. Yeah.

Oh, I don’t disagree with that either. I just didn’t want. To make an. Absolute kind of. I wanted to.

True, right, it’s there’s nothing absolute in art. It’s so hard for me sometimes to talk about this stuff without being like.

Kind of bring something more.

Version and will.

Usually or occasionally, or maybe or.

Yeah, the the truth is, is both things a. Lot of the time.

But yeah, with success and it’s ever changing definitions. If you can live in the moment with your work, I think you will be able to better understand and see what it is that you really need from it, because in the moment when you’re working on the work, what is it? You’re. Getting out of it. What is it that you’re after? What are you chasing? You know, for me.

The results are an experience effort where a lot of people would fall into those categories.

Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah. And for me, it’s just my brain just wants to figure it out. I just want to explore it, I. Am so curious.

About what’s going to come out or.

All the time about what I can do with this material and and this idea that I have. Is it possible you know? So I’m always chasing that. What if kind of question in my head and for other people it would be different. That’s my moment. That’s that’s the moment I like. To live in.

And you’ll figure out how to do it, no doubt, because I know you.

And you and and to. My detriment sometimes, but yeah. Yeah. In any case, I think if you can live in the moment, enjoy creativity and you know, just be able to take in what it is that you’re doing, that you enjoy the most. What is it in the moment that you’re actually creating? I think that that’s really, really, it’s to recognize that.

It’s the most orange.

It’s the most rewarding. I think the experience of it.

Yeah, yeah, I I have to agree, yeah. So that kind of wraps up and rounds out what we were talking about today.

Well, it’s definitely giving me some new perspective on success and reevaluate. Yeah, it’s going to help me reevaluate some of the the ways I’ve been approaching things.

Yeah. I think for me too having this discussion because we started out as kind of like more a philosophical discussion about where we were and and then when we did the podcast, I feel like.

I think so, yeah.

It just kind. Of distills these ideas, at least for me, and hopefully for the people who are listening to to to be able to stop and think about that you know, cuz we get so busy in our lives. Sometimes it’s hard to. Stop and evaluate where we are and. What do we need?

Down and take a second look and question some of the the beliefs and things that drive us.

And the things that we do by inertia only, which I think is sometimes something that I run into. So I think this is a good subject matter and hopefully all of you out there have found something in this conversation that speaks to you and that it’s getting you thinking. And if nothing else, giving you something to kind of stash away for later when you feel like maybe you need to reassess and rejigger. It’s rescheduled.

Yeah, I think so. It is now.

And and judge. What it is that you’re doing and what?

I’m Jones mean Jones, yeah.

Makes you happy. Yeah, yeah, I’m all about just being fulfilled. And if that’s something that really speaks to you, if some points of this conversation make you think of any stories or anything that you’d like to tell me, please do write me. You know, I’d love to hear from you. You can write me at the sagearts.com website. There’s a contact page there. You can also go to. Instagram or Facebook under the Sage Arts podcast pages and send me direct messages or put messages in the post, whatever you. Want to do? And if you would like to help support. This podcast and want to give back. You can go to the homepage of the sagearts.com. And Scroll down a little bit there is. He buy me a coffee and PayPal donation buttons to contribute and if you want to keep up on when those podcasts comes out and get any of the extras that come with some of these episodes, please do sign up for the newsletter, which is on the homepage of the sagearts.com at the news and notices button. And also if you haven’t done so already, hit that follow button on your podcast player. Or wherever you are. Listening to this from so you know when the episode comes out, and then it also helps with our search engine list thingies. I don’t understand the technology exactly, but you. Know it helps so. So we can help that. Way as well. In the meantime we have talked long enough and. Think we’ll we’ll go Amber. Here, Are you ready to go? Ember is ready for for dinner. Looks like yeah. Yeah. So, and Brett. Thank you. Thank you for joining me again in the podcast room. It’s been a while. Yeah. Do.

Thanks. That was a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did. Yeah.

You miss it. Yeah, I.

So hopefully we. Get to do it again soon, maybe in another month or so. Great. Well, thanks for joining us and all of you out there. Thank you for joining us as well and you know. Get out there for you. That must be true to your weirdness. And join us again next time. On the Sage Arts podcast.

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1 thought on “Ep.049 Define Your Success w/guest co-host Brett Varon”

Megan
January 30, 2024 at 9:21 am

Loved this one! Always fun when Brett comes along = )
The definition of success is a constantly moving target! I needed to hear this! Even when I tell myself I have been successful as defined by my own authentic self…I still find myself being influenced by more traditional measures of success…and then doubt creeps in. So your discussion really helped to re-ground me!! = )

Thanks Sage!!

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