Do you find any aspect of your art making process easy or are you looking for ways to make it easier, simpler, looking for shortcuts, and why? And in what area do you do that?
In this episode, Brett and I wander through the highs and lows of the artistic struggle, try to define art itself, and work on defining when, if ever, we should be looking for easier ways to create and what that could mean for our growth and joy in the artistic process.
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CREDITS:
Cover design & painting “Barely There” by Sage Bray Varon;
Border Illustration by Olga Kostenko
Music by Playsound
Transcript
Sage:
You know how. Can you make? Art faster. How could you? You know, make it less painful or.
Brett:
Whatever. Yeah. Let’s. Let’s work. You just watch the the fruits of the the beautiful thing that you can say that you did instead of having A and and the the the we’re conditioned to to believe that. Yeah.
Sage:
And it. But not go through all the. Pain. Anguish. We are, I think so. Hello all my hard working creatives out there. Thank you for joining me on the Sage Arts podcast. This is sage and I am in the studio today with the whole of the household. We’ve got Brett in the comfy chair.
Brett:
The whole of the household.
Sage:
The whole household, the whole of the house. So.
Brett:
Ohh, the whole household. Ohh, and we have Amber here.
Sage:
Yeah, and ember’s.
Brett:
Too our dog so.
Sage:
Under the desk? Yeah. She decided she’s going. Then under the desk name.
Brett:
We’re hanging out in the podcast room.
Sage:
Yeah, hanging out the podcast room on a nice beautiful for once temperate today in Southern California, it was. It was I.
Brett:
It was really beautiful actually. You know you’re you’re such as being positive. It was a really.
Sage:
No, you’re not. Just.
Brett:
Being positive, yeah.
Sage:
So just really enjoying that and I have no idea why I talk about whether every time I do the introduction.
Brett:
Well, that’s like the easiest thing to kind of start a conversation with, you know, how’s the weather? How’s the weather by you?
Sage:
I actually really like. Weather. In fact, someone called this is back when I lived in in Colorado, someone called to survey about television watching habits. And so the first thing they asked. What station do you watch the most? I said. Oh, that’s easy. The weather.
Brett:
Channel you watch The Weather Channel. I’m not surprised.
Sage:
And the person was like crying for.
Speaker
Like a 2 seconds.
Sage:
And they just busted up laugh. He’s like I’ve never gotten that. One that one I I think. Yeah, I.
Brett:
And he took you seriously, you know like. That could have been a. Joke that’s like a punch line.
Sage:
Think he waited a couple of seconds to see if I would say no, just. Kidding cause I. Didn’t because I’m like, no, I love the. Weather. And then I lived in Colorado, which is like. There’s different weather every day, every 15 minutes. In fact, that’s one of the sayings out there. And I know a lot of places have similar sayings where it’s just we. Don’t like the weather? Just wait 15 minutes.
Brett:
So what is it about the weather? That you love is. It the mood that it creates in you or is? It the smell in the air? Or is it auditory?
Sage:
It’s the drama of it. It’s the drama of just having to change. I really like change one of those weirdos. I don’t like routines. I like things to be different all the time. I like to keep my senses up and aware and my brain going and in. Colorado, you could wake up. And have a nice sunny cool day and then a hot afternoon, and then by 5:00 it’s thundering and lightning. And hail and wind and trees are falling over. And for like. 15 minutes and then it. Goes away, and that’s a nice day. Again, so yeah, I. Used to watch The Weather Channel all the time because it was. Colorado. You never knew it. Was gonna happen. You had to check also.
Brett:
And there’s this. There’s a certain sense of interest there, because when you don’t know what’s going to happen, that’s kind of exciting. Yeah.
Sage:
It is and it can also be challenging. And it can be hard to figure out what it is. You’re gonna wear that day.
Brett:
I think it’s just one more thing to think about because.
Speaker
I was trying to lead into. Our subject matter.
Brett:
Oh, sorry, yeah.
Sage:
So britson here in the podcast studio with me today to talk about things being easy and art, and whether that’s a good thing, a bad thing. So before I get started and we really get into it, let me thank. A few people. For participating and then jumping in on social media, and I wish I could thank everybody that’s been sharing and talking about it. Sometimes I just get statistics and I. Don’t actually know who it is. But I do know that Jim Montorsi, Tracy Davies, Jilly Scott, all we’re sharing pages and talking about the podcast out on. Mine so appreciate that I did see a little bit of a spike in listenership lately, and I’m assuming it’s because all you people out there chatting about it, which is great because I think our conversation, even if we aren’t in a room together knowing that other people are hearing about the same things, talking about the same thing, struggling with the same things I think gives us. A sense of. Community just from knowing that that’s out there so. I really appreciate that if anybody would like to send me additional comments and stories. I love the stories. Don’t get enough of them. Please. Please send me stories about your struggles and about your accomplishments and anything else that would be helpful for other people to learn. From you can send them to me at thish-r.com. There’s a contact. Page there also through. Social media, Instagram and Facebook under the Sage Arts podcast. If you like what you’re hearing here and you want to support the show, you can give back through PayPal and buy me a coffee, which there are buttons on the homepage of the stage are.com just a little ways down. These links are also all in your description. Section or show notes in your podcast player, so I’m gonna keep that short because this conversation gets kind of long. OK, so let’s talk about aren’t being easy. We’re going to talk about whether things should be easy and art or not. And this conversation came up because Brett and I were talking about on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and all this stuff. There’s this, like, you can make your own abstract art or you can make your own blah, blah blah in like 5 minutes. You can make your own. Jewelry make your own. Whatever and I want. To set this up by first saying that I don’t see a problem with those being there and the people finding joy in doing those things, the question really comes down to whether. It’s art and calling it art in what? Us as artistic people would. Do or not do in terms of making things easier, so first setting some questions in your mind while you’re listening to this. Do you find any aspect of your artwork easy? Are you looking for ways to make it easier? Simpler looking for shortcuts and why and in what area. Do you do that? So have some questions in mind. Maybe about like what you do as far as like wanting things to be easy or maybe you don’t want things to be. Easy. Maybe you’re a crazy person like me and you like everything to be a chef. So I think the first thing we need to do. Is actually define art. And I I’ve done this a. Couple of times before.
Brett:
So the three letters.
Sage:
Spell with three letters. Thank you. Yeah. He likes to cover the bases.
Brett:
Yeah, that now we’re done. So that makes it easy.
Sage:
They’re all done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So defining art like, why is something art or why is something not art. And there is such.
Brett:
Maybe let?
Sage:
Controversy over this I think The thing is. Art is that yes, it’s hard to define. It’s hard to delineate what it is because what art expresses and evokes is subjective. So some people might see something as art, because if they really react to it and other people could say it’s not art like the banana taped to. The wall I didn’t remember. Did that but. They taped the banana to the wall. Called it art. Some people were in uproar over the how stupid it was and other. Super like genius, you know? So is it art? Is it not art? That’s. Very subjective specially.
Brett:
It’s a certain kind. Of art. There’s conceptual art and yeah.
Sage:
It’s it’s very conceptual and it’s pushing an envelope and you can see there’s value in that because it allows other artists to push an envelope in a direction that might not have been available to them before. So there’s a whole argument over those kinds of really out there artists or I mean holik was one of those out there artist.
Brett:
Yeah. Once they get people.
Sage:
Back then.
Brett:
Thinking and think outside the box of what’s expected to be art.
Sage:
Pushing, pushing the idea of what art is. So there’s that. But art is known through the experience of the audience as well as the intention and expression of. The artist. That’s the main thing. There’s intention and expression and personal expression could be anything from you have a message about, you know, social injustice to. I really like. The color blue and I want to. Show you how. Wonderful blue is to me, so it’s kind of hard to define art. But what we’re going to be talking about today is trying. To determine what. Thou art should or could be easy. And when it’s good or? When it’s bad for it to. Be easy versus being difficult, what it means? For it to be difficult and why that can be a. The thing or a bad thing. So we’re we’re gonna try to discuss all these things. We’ll see what comes out. This is gonna be pretty off the cuff. So, but let’s start off with just talking about the whole idea of things being easy. I think there is an erroneous drive in our capitalistic societies that things. Should be easy. Because in much of Western culture, we’re conditioned into believing that. That we should always be looking for an easier way, a more convenient way, a quicker way to do things. I mean, most of the stuff we’re being sold is sold to us to make things easier or quicker or more convenient. You know, we want to make our lives. Simpler, more comfortable.
Brett:
The modern world.
Sage:
And yeah, and. It’s as if.
Brett:
It’s commerce, really.
Sage:
It is commerce and it drives commerce.
Brett:
So it it conditions us, I don’t know if it’s erroneous. Or not but.
Sage:
I think it’s really it’s. That’s my personal opinion. Because, well, here’s The thing is.
Brett:
It makes a lot of money for people, I guess, right?
Speaker
It teaches. It well it does, but.
Brett:
But sort of. Hurts our culture. The end of the day.
Sage:
Well, I think The thing is is that we have learned that making things easy and convenient and as comfortable as possible. We feel like it is the penultimate goal of every aspect of our lives. To the extent that it’s worked into things like art that maybe art should also be about quick and easy and how.
Brett:
Quick and conveniences.
Sage:
Can you make it? You know, how can you make art faster? How could you, you know, make it less painful or whatever less.
Brett:
Yeah, let’s let’s work. Let’s.
Speaker
I mean.
Brett:
That you just want the the fruits of the the beautiful thing that you can say that you did instead of having A and and with the the we’re conditioned to to believe that, yeah.
Sage:
But not go through all the pain. We are, I think so and. I think it’s worked its way into. Art and being fed that maybe art. Should be easy as well, but. I don’t know. I think art. Shouldn’t necessarily be easy, for reasons we’ll talk about. 2nd but I mostly think that art for the artist is really about the experience and the process, and not just about the end result and maybe not even about the end results.
Brett:
Yeah, a lot of artists are not into the end result. They want it to be finished, but they move on to the next thing. I know a lot of actors won’t watch a film, they just start in. It’s done. It’s in the past. It’s a record of that experience. It is not something to relive over and over again for the satisfaction of our egos or something, I don’t know.
Sage:
Right.
Speaker
Right.
Sage:
Will you do that? Yourself. You have made cartoons and it it takes so long between when you finish your part of storyboarding and directing and all the.
Brett:
All the time, yeah.
Sage:
By the time it actually airs, it’s been like a year or something and you’re on to something else, so it makes sense that you’re not going to be that interested in the end result, and maybe you’re a little less conditioned to look for the end result than the experience. But I think that can be true.
Brett:
For a lot.
Sage:
Of artists, I mean things that you and actors and other people who make something and then move on. Before they even get to see the end result, show that there is value in the process and not just in the end. You know, and I think it’s important. To to to see that.
Brett:
I think it’s the reason we do it.
Sage:
I think it’s the reason I. Do it.
Brett:
I mean, I think, but everyone has different, right?
Sage:
Have it has different reasons for doing it. Yeah, yeah.
Brett:
Just do you feel everyone feels differently but. They’re so there’s. Satisfaction in both to a degree, but I think the important one that should be driving that I look to in myself driving me.
Sage:
I think it’s the process for you.
Brett:
The process, yeah, the the intention. The act of doing it, not the the performance of of, of doing it well, though that is part of the process and that’s the work.
Sage:
Yeah. So I think what you do and the fact that you wait so long to see the end result, it doesn’t even matter by then. Just goes to show that. It is a worthwhile endeavor. The process and the challenges that you go through the journey of the creation itself can be more important than the end result of the end product. I mean, you do what you do well when you get a paycheck. That’s good. But you like we were talking about this earlier today. You don’t know what else you would have.
Brett:
Yeah, this is all I ever wanted to do, but.
Sage:
So you would have done it like I think I would do the things I do, even if I wasn’t paid, which is actually. Kind of true, right?
Brett:
Yeah, I do all kinds of.
Sage:
Things I’m not. Getting paid for it right now, so we do create out of a impetus to experience the process and to go through it. And I think it would be hard to not be invested in the.
Speaker
OK.
Sage:
Results because I mean, if you were making a show and you didn’t care about the end result, it might be hard for you to make a good show.
Brett:
You got to think about the end result.
Sage:
Right, right. So we’re not saying the end result isn’t a big part of it, but I think the end result is not the core like value for you as an artist.
Brett:
Ohh, I see the reason I do it. No, is the.
Sage:
Yeah, right.
Brett:
Reason I do it is to yeah.
Speaker
Because you love it.
Brett:
It’s something that I. Really like spending time doing continuing to do it.
Sage:
On it, right? Yeah.
Brett:
Is the joy.
Sage:
Yeah, exactly. So and we’ll get to why that’s important too. But yeah. So to think of art as being quick and easy then isn’t the experience kind of limited and maybe even a little shallow because you don’t go through the whole journey if you’ve given a shortcut, if you watch a YouTube video and figure out how to make abstract art, you just pour the paint on the canvas and you. Trying to brush right and. You’re like, oh, it’s abstract art.
Brett:
I would say there’s value in that. If you, let’s say you learn it once on YouTube and I think there would be value in it if you did that over and over. Here again.
Sage:
But that’s exactly it, because doing it over and over again doesn’t make it. Easy does it right?
Brett:
It doesn’t. It doesn’t make it easy, but it it’s.
Sage:
Because you didn’t have to go in and practice it to get to a point where you can express your own version of it. That is from you. And that’s discipline and that’s practice and that’s developing and honing the skill.
Brett:
So that’s you could call that you could call that word, but if that work comes easy like it’s something that you just like to do, then do a lot of it. And so if something we would call that are being easy.
Sage:
Alright, well. Yeah. And like I said, I I don’t want people to think that we’re saying that doing things that are easy makes it not art, but there’s right. But I think being in a society that sells us easy and convenient and find shortcuts.
Brett:
An easy phase to process. Yeah, they put band aids on things.
Sage:
Yeah, the whole Band-Aid thing, I think if we end up focusing on that, we lose out on the whole experience of being an artist. And the experience includes like, yes, you can learn a skill off of a YouTube video and then practice it until you’ve developed your own way of doing it. You’ve explored it, you.
Brett:
I’m doing, yeah.
Sage:
Know what you. Like love it.
Brett:
And you know, and you know, and you know why you do it if it would help? Because if someone shows you how to draw a leaf and they talk about trying to express the line with an organic quality, there’s, like, those are thematic things. Those are things that you have as an idea. And when you do the work, you can.
Sage:
You what you don’t like? Yeah, exactly. Then you may be drawn.
Brett:
Employ that kind of more organic line, but it’s not drawing exactly what they drew it’s it’s drawing an organic line from your own personal observations. What your brain and your eye and your hand. You know that whole connection, you know, do. Yeah.
Speaker
Right.
Sage:
You develop your own style and you express yourself through that, but you may have learned that you like to do that through something short and easy, but the. Process of figuring out how you want to use it is a process that takes time and it’s not easy. It’s not overnight type. I’m just going to make a thing. So that’s what I’m thinking is. Like we need to differentiate between. The skill could be easy. But actually making the art is probably not.
Brett:
Hard is part is part.
Sage:
Going to be easy.
Brett:
Of the process, but eventually say because.
Sage:
Well, let’s put it this. Way I think. We don’t get as much value out of what we do when it’s. Easy. For instance, if you were to. OK, we’re talking about escape. Earlier and for those of you don’t know.
Brett:
Too much work. Better fill out all that stuff that doesn’t matter.
Sage:
OK, for those of you who don’t know what an escape room is, if you pay kind of a lot of money to be put into a room that’s full of puzzles and you have an end goal, you’re trying to find a secret formula. You’re trying to rescue. Some of that was kidnapped or whatever.
Brett:
And the room has a theme like. It’s a a. Western saloon and you gotta find you gotta find.
Sage:
Or it’s a? Zombie lab or whatever.
Brett:
A you know?
Sage:
And within there you are challenged to go through and. Figure out all. These puzzles and people pay. To be challenged to do something. That should be hard. And we’ve done them. I don’t if you’re on my team, we we went to one and we did it. We. Finished it in like. 10 minutes and it’s supposed to be like. 45 minutes or an hour or something. OK, that was too easy. There wasn’t. The excitement of discovery and the pride of doing something that was questionable, that you could do it or not cause a lot of people don’t actually finish and get to the goal in these escape rooms. So if you spent half an hour, 45. Minutes in this escape room, then. You would feel like you accomplished something, and if you manage to get to the end on something that’s really hard, like maybe. Because they have different levels, like maybe it’s something that, like, hardly anybody solves it will make you so much happier than if you just happen to solve it in 10. Minutes, you know or. If, like if you were making something like if you knitted your own sweater, no matter how it came out, you would probably be proud of yourself for knitting a sweater for the first thing you. Ever knitted especially right. You’re like, look. I need this sweater is so cool and it’s a challenge. To do that, but if you. Paid someone else to knit the same sweater. That makes it easy, right? Someone else does all the hard work and stuff. You would not have pride in that sweater, just cause it was your idea to make a sweater.
Brett:
Well plus it it also builds the muscle not only for the passion you have for doing it, but for doing more. And you want to do different and more interesting things each time.
Sage:
And you’ve learned things about yourself and what you like to do, what you don’t like to do. You may. Find out you don’t. Like to knit.
Speaker
Yeah. How do you find that out?
Brett:
It just. Quick I. Think if I started.
Sage:
So there’s things that you discover along the.
Brett:
You never know though. Maybe I would love.
Sage:
Way, right? So but in.
Brett:
Knitting, I don’t know. I’ve never tried it.
Sage:
Other words, challenges and things being. Difficult can be extremely real. Supporting and educational and you develop memories and experiences that you would not otherwise have. I mean, we pay to have memories and experiences all the time. We pay to have challenges like the escape room or like buying a game or playing darts or, you know, anything chess, crossword puzzles we pay. And buy things in order to be called. And then on the other hand, how contradictory is this? On the other hand, we are constantly paying to make things easier and simpler for us and more convenient for us. Isn’t that weird? We’re paying for things to be easy. We’re paying for things to be hard.
Brett:
Ohh that’s an. Interesting layer though, because we’re paying for we’re paying for things to be hard, but we’re in control of that.
Sage:
Right. But the things that you do that are hard that you accomplish, gonna have so much more pride in and you’re going to value more because you went through the struggle of making it happen or creating that thing. So, like we were talking.
Brett:
Not if you just want. The accolades for it and you just want to. Show people what you did.
Sage:
But that’s still very empty, you know.
Brett:
It is, but maybe that’s enough. You.
Sage:
No, but it’s like like like if.
Brett:
Know why not just do that?
Sage:
Just trying to be contrary.
Brett:
I’m very I’m being contrary.
Sage:
He’s trying to give me challenges cause then this. Is much I would be. A lot prouder when I’m get. Through this podcast I.
Brett:
It it will make it.
Sage:
Want so much pride and actually having a podcast at the end of this?
Brett:
See, that’s this is part. Of the work people, this is yeah.
Sage:
Definitely part of the world. So for instance, you walk into a party and it’s all these wealthy people and they’re like, how did you make your money? And you said I won the lottery. People be like ohh, OK or you say I built a company from the ground up and then after five years I sold it for several $1,000,000. That’s how I made my money. Then you feel proud and you feel like people are going to look at you with respect. You will feel better about doing that. Then when the lottery in fact we saw a show where somebody kept lying about how they made their money because they wanted in a lottery and they were trying to hide it. Because it doesn’t feel like it’s anything. To be proud of.
Brett:
I think, yeah, winning the lottery would probably be the most miserable thing anything could happen to somebody.
Sage:
He’s a little sarcastic.
Brett:
There. Yeah. Yeah, I.
Sage:
Mean, I mean. You know, having the money is great. Now, if you won the money. And then you. Built a business with the money or you built a charity or what? Not. Then there’s something to be very proud of, because that’s not easy to do and it still takes work. So I think. The work that we put into things, the difficulties that we have. Actually give more value to what we do. So if you’re doing artwork that’s hard and you’re struggling, just imagine how it’s gonna feel when you have a successful piece now caveats.
Brett:
And it feels so good.
Sage:
It’s getting. But it does and it’s it’s. Part of why I do it, it’s part of why I do what I do. Like when I start the Polym Arts magazine or starting this podcast. I so want people to have that feeling of accomplishment that makes what they do so much more valuable, and the feeling is amazing.
Brett:
It’s a sense of it’s not about the feeling, it’s about a. Sense of purpose. It is about the feeling. Yeah, I mean, is it your feelings about having a sense of purpose, I guess?
Sage:
Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah. No, I mean it. Can be either and it can be both. Hopefully it’s. With you know that you have this wonderful feeling that you have accomplished something. So yeah, so I think just when things are hard, it adds value to what you’re. Doing so all. I’m saying is that hard work and effort and the processes that we go through and experiences that we have add value to what we do. So I am not a big proponent of making things. Easy that that is not to say that things shouldn’t be easy. Ish, you know, or have easy moments. Like we talked about flow, the flow episode we talk about flow works because you have a challenge. That is engaging enough to keep you. Working, but not so challenging as to frustrate you. So I think there’s a level of challenge that is doable and if it’s doable and you can accomplish something and at the end you.
Brett:
Yeah, wonder that.
Sage:
Have something to. Show for it that that is a very valuable experience for you. And that’s what we’re talking about, that kind of. You know middle ground where? It’s challenging, but not so challenging that you’re. So that’s what I’m talking about in terms of being difficult. I don’t think you should be, you know, just struggling, struggling, struggling. But I think sometimes we can struggle too much with something like me trying to fix things I like. I think we talked about this before too. Like, if I’m gonna try to fix something, I don’t know when to give up. There are times I should just give up. And throw it away and buy a new. One, but I’m like I’m gonna fix it.
Speaker
I’m gonna make this.
Brett:
Yeah, she keeps going.
Sage:
Happen. You know? Yeah. So sometimes it’s admirable. Sometimes things being difficult, it’s not worth. But if there is a challenge that keeps you engaged, that isn’t frustrating you. That is potentially a very good thing in your artwork. So another kind of definition of art. I was thinking about like you have these how to make abstract art on YouTube, right. And they’re like. Splash some paint on this campus and then. Drip it around and then run the brush through it like once or twice and look you’ve got abstract art and sure it might be something cool to look at, but I don’t think it’s art because it’s not a mode of expression because there wasn’t a journey to get.
Brett:
The product, more than a record of of a creative experience.
Sage:
It’s a product. Exactly. Yeah. I’m not saying there’s not value in the process of copying this thing as as shown on. This video what?
Speaker
But it had.
Brett:
Limited, you know, returns.
Sage:
It has limited exactly as limited returns and. I think it. It does kind of define that difference between something that’s just made and something. That’s art because. Doing something the same way you’re shown in a video and this would be included and I hope I don’t offend anybody. I think this would be included if you learn something on a video in your art form you learn how to make it and you go and you repeat that and you I don’t know, you change the color or. You change the. Shape or whatever like that.
Brett:
That’s like more of an exercise than. Than in art.
Sage:
Right. It is an exercise and it does have an experience and all that.
Brett:
Has a value too.
Sage:
Kind of stuff, but until you’ve gone through the process of filtering it through yourself, filtering it through your aesthetics and your. Need to put something out there. What is it that you? Need to put out there.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah.
Sage:
Until it goes through that, I don’t think it’s art yet. I think it’s an exercise. You’re right. Exercise I. I use the word. Doodle when I was making these notes here, it feels like it’s a doodle. You’re just doing something to.
Brett:
It’s a move. To learn the like. If you wanna do a certain thing a certain way, like how do they get, you know, you see these effects and paintings or whatever. How is it done? You know, how do they get that effect? Maybe you can learn those things, but then what you do with those things is the art, not just reproducing them how to.
Sage:
Yeah. Well, the process that you go through to determine how to use that, so my thought was that one, a lot of these videos, what they’re selling you is you can make your own abstract artwork to hang on your walls. So you don’t have to go pay good.
Brett:
Well, it’s a lot cheaper.
Sage:
Money. It is a it is. A lot cheaper actually. Well, my experience should be a.
Brett:
You know, yeah.
Sage:
Lot cheaper, I don’t know.
Brett:
I guess it depends on where what. Fine art gallery you go to.
Sage:
Yeah, right. Exactly. But you have an objective, you have a function for what it is that you’ve made cause a lot of them sell it as make your own art, right. So they’re making these videos selling the idea of making your own decor, which is fine. You want to make your own decor and abstract art. It’s not your thing. And you can learn to make something really quick and easy for the total of $25 or whatever versus. You know, $2500 I I get that. But then what you’re talking about is that you’re making a functional item whose function is purely to be decorative and not to be art. And this is not to say that functional items can’t be art, because you can have a functional item, whether it’s a. Teapot or jewelry or anything you know, anything spoons, whatever. Those can be. Optional. But the thing about those that make him art is that they can exist without their function being used and still be valuable. So you could have a piece of art jewelry like I have a bunch of jewelry on the shelf behind my lounge where I take my inspiring naps where I don’t use them much. But they’re beautiful pieces of art so they can exist as art outside of their possible function. Whereas the stuff that people are trying to teach people on YouTube is them making a piece, it’s going to function as wall decor and not as art, because if it’s not hanging on that wall and it’s just sitting somewhere with someone go oh, look at that art. I can appreciate it for what it is on a thumb.
Brett:
Yeah, interesting.
Speaker
Sort of it’s.
Brett:
Sort of. The concept of art. If we were aliens and we were going to mimic art, we would just, you know, look at a video.
Sage:
We are. I don’t care if you’re an alien.
Brett:
They’re just saying they they don’t know which they don’t know what’s between the lines.
Sage:
Or a dog or an. Elephant. Yeah, the person who. Teaches you that they went through a period of discovery in order to get to that point. You didn’t do that. If you’re just doing what they did, so you’ve missed out on the whole plethora of experience and memories and pride. That you could have in your work. They’ve done that work and now they’re sharing it with you, but it’s not art for you. If you go through the process of figuring out for yourself, how do you want to make abstract art, then it becomes.
Speaker
Right.
Sage:
Because it becomes an expression of you and it’s filtered through you and what you want to. Put out there.
Brett:
Right. That makes sense, yeah.
Sage:
So again, this is all a matter of opinion. And you may. Not agree with me, which is absolutely fantastic.
Brett:
I don’t I so don’t agree with you everything. Oh my gosh.
Sage:
You don’t agree with me on anything?
Brett:
I agree I.
Sage:
But yeah, yeah.
Brett:
Didn’t put it very well too. I totally agree.
Sage:
But maybe you don’t agree with me. Please write me. Let me know. I would love to have more conversations about this cause a lot of times people come back with a different viewpoint than me and it’s really eye opening. I love hearing that stuff. I also want to emphasize that I don’t think there is. No personal value in doing something that’s kind of copied or that you learned a shorthand version of, because I mean, people do all kinds of things to have experiences and pass the time. Like, you know, paint by numbers are like so many people do that or like the coloring books out there because people like to have that kind of downtime that. Unplug and just create something without having to think about it and it be easy. That’s OK. I have no problem with that. Yeah, I think it’s wonderful. That’s what you wanna do. I’d rather people creating than not creating, but I think we need to leave room for art to be defined as art. That’s a mode of self-expression. Otherwise, I think you’re really.
Brett:
Yeah, it’s a manipulative sort of state.
Sage:
Doing a disservice to the artists who spend the time and struggle and work out how they’re going to express themselves versus somebody who does something cause they can copy it or they’re given a paint by numbers or whatnot. That’s a different type of thing. That’s hobbycraft, right? But people using the word art. For everything and I think now people who actually create art as at least the way I define it, this is my definition that I think those people don’t have a word or label or category of their own to say I’m making art because it’s part of me.
Brett:
You want to call it what it is.
Sage:
I do. I do. I just think artists needs artists need to be recognized. And then the other thing is OK, just because something is easy doesn’t mean it isn’t art either, because at a certain point, Brett, you sit down to do a storyboard or edit or direct. Storyboard usually but. You sit down to work on a storyboard. I don’t think the drawing part is hard for you.
Brett:
Takes many years of drawing and all the learning I’ve done to to refine that ability and make it, you know, professional, of course, but also creative and really look, look.
Sage:
Good. Yeah, yeah.
Brett:
You know, to communicate what it needs to. Communicate but.
Sage:
You spend the time and you put the effort into it and you have a discipline that gets you to a point where you sit down now. Well, and draw any of. The characters, the standard characters, at least off of. The Patrick Show and it it’s easy to. Draw them now. So I’m not saying that every part of it should be hard. I’m not saying that there are parts that can be easy, but after you’ve learned that skill, the hard part is translating what you want to be doing through the skill, you know.
Brett:
Yeah, what you want to say and implementing the skill, but the skills, not the result. The is the intention. The tools just to help that along.
Sage:
No, it’s. It’s a tool. Yeah, to. To get to say what you.
Brett:
The words aren’t coming out quite right, but. You I think. You get what I mean? Yes, it is.
Sage:
Because it’s hard. The process of making this podcast is very much like making art. Sometimes it’s easy, sometimes it’s not. It’s a process, it’s it’s a it’s a process and it’s an experience we can we can tell you and we enjoy it we.
Brett:
Yeah. So. A sculpting flag? Yeah. And you enjoy it.
Sage:
Do OK, so I thought we could go. Over some things in art that aren’t easy, and then things in art that are easy. So just kind of like like a. Little bit of. A checklist. Things that aren’t easy in art that I think, and I’ve got one. 234. Understanding art and design, I don’t think it’s easy and I don’t think it should be easy. I think it should be something that you work on. Art, art and design. Is a matter of education. So yeah, some people create intuitively and they kind of know art and design concepts just kind of out. The gate. But Even so, there’s an intellectual component even for those who. Do it. Instinctually, your brain is unconsciously working through patterns and associations throughout your art practice, and if you are working on it and you are trying to learn, then it’s a process and it’s going to take time. So it’s not easy. There are things that you can do like things that I suggest. When I talk about the various design aspects at the. Beginning of the month, I give you some ideas to help you. Own in on those ideas for the month, like it’s shape and form this month and my suggestion was kind of to analyze other pieces and determine what those shapes and forms do for you, how you react to them, the kind of feeling they give the. Work and in that process you can better learn design. So I don’t think that’s a shortcut because there’s work to. Be done right? So it’s not particularly easy. It takes time and effort to do it. So I don’t think education should be easy. I don’t think you should be able. To just. Inject it because part of the process of learning develops your sense of style. Aesthetic and helps in developing your voice because.
Brett:
It has it has. There has to be. Effort, yeah.
Sage:
I believe, yeah. Believe so. So even if you start out with an innate sense or talent for seeing what makes good design, I just think you have to learn and you have to practice until your mind and your store of knowledge has been built up. So even if it starts out like where you kind of have an innate sense, there is some conscious sense of things that you kind of need. In order to be able to analyze your work and to be able to. Fix things when it’s not working. So it still takes education and understanding and knowledge to be able to take that innate sense of design and use it in other ways other than just while I’m creating. I kind of know this is in balance or not in balance. Or whatever. It doesn’t happen in one day is really the bottom line. Learning is a ongoing thing.
Brett:
It makes sense if you’d like to do something, you do it a lot, even if that thing is challenging to do. So if you do it a lot, that means you’ll be building that muscle.
Sage:
Right, right. Yeah. It’s not to say that it’s not enjoyable to learn about this stuff. There’s a lot of stuff that you do bread like you like. He spends more time learning about stuff that he works on, right? Now where you’re. Learning, like historical stuff or how to do certain things better, or how did other people do what? What you do, and so that’s an on it’s just an ongoing process. So I don’t think there should be a shortcut. I don’t think it’s about whether it’s easy or hard, because if. You really love the. Subject Matter then it still feels easy to learn it.
Brett:
Yeah. And you could never know enough. And there’s always something you don’t know. And and there’s things you can, you know, potentially, like invent by putting ideas together and.
Sage:
Right. Always, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I just don’t think trying to shortcut your education is not going to be of service for you as an artist, though. So that’s one thing. I don’t think that should. Be particularly easy and the other. Thing, I don’t think that’s easy is executing ideas. Getting ideas can be super easy like you like. In the shower and all of a sudden like. Oh my gosh.
Brett:
You gotta do it.
Sage:
This good idea and he he’s actually.
Speaker
And he says that cause I.
Sage:
Actually do this all like wrap the towel around me and run down the hall, cause our shower from the opposite end of the house from my studio and I run down the hall cause I gotta go right down an idea that I got in the shower because if you listen to the episode.
Speaker
Thank you.
Sage:
The necessity of doing nothing. Yeah. Ideas and showers come up cause there’s nothing else for your brain to do and it just starts processing stuff so coming up. With ideas can be easy. The executing of them is not usually easy. It can be if you’ve had enough practice, you’ve been doing something long enough. It may be a pleasurable, slightly elevated challenge, but it may not actually be too hard, but thing is figuring out what we’re going to make. Sometimes it’s hard working out the designs that can be hard. Choosing the materials or the colors, the composition. Any of the design principles that go into the creation of the? Work can be. Some level of challenge. It’s all like a big puzzle. It’s something we need to work out. Now. I like we were saying earlier. I never understood why people would want to skip that step because it is like a puzzle or a game and we pay for puzzles and games. So why aren’t you taking this free puzzle or game and like playing, you know, so things that are difficult and challenging. That we already pay for those challenges. Just think of those things that you’re having to work through as a puzzle or a challenge, and hopefully it’s enjoyable on some. Level you should want.
Brett:
To do it, I mean think you should.
Sage:
You should want. Yeah, you should want.
Brett:
Learn. I don’t know. It doesn’t.
Sage:
To do.
Brett:
Make any sense if you don’t want to do something.
Sage:
Right. But I just worry that in conversations I have with some people or the amount of things that you see out there online about people trying to make it easy for people, I hope people aren’t being sold this. Idea that it should always be easy.
Brett:
Ah, I see.
Sage:
I think executing your idea is more of a marathon, not a Sprint, or it’s like a Rubik’s Cube and not 100 piece. Puzzle. You know, it’s something that you’re going to go through and work through, and then when you’ve executed it in a way. Say that you are proud of. It’s like the best feeling in the. World I just want. Everybody to have that feeling of trying and working hard and knowing you may potentially fail at what you’re trying to do, but when you do it. It’s the best. That’s really what I want to tell everybody in this world. Do the work, go through and struggle, and when you come out the other side and. You have something that you’re proud of?
Brett:
Sense of accomplishment.
Sage:
Absolutely. The best thing in the.
Brett:
And getting something out.
Sage:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That’s it’s such great fun. And it’s an experience like no other, at least in my opinion. So another thing, I think that’s just it’s not easy and it’s practically part of the definition is.
Brett:
It is a good feeling.
Sage:
Discipline discipline isn’t usually easy.
Speaker
Why you need?
Brett:
Isn’t that is that why they? Call it discipline, I guess.
Sage:
Yeah, right. Because you. Need to be you need to be disciplined. You need to like keep yourself on track. It’s kind of part of the definition that it is something that you need to work. On right so. Art is a daily struggle, I think, and a daily joy as well, right? But getting yourself to work with all the other distractions we have in life requires. A lot of discipline, which is. Often very hard to adhere to. But we do it because, well, most of us can’t not create, but at the same time, it can be hard to dedicate the time needed for it because of all these other things in our lives. So being disciplined to keep at it, I think it’s always going to be a struggle on some level, sometimes a little bit easier. Sometimes it’s a lot harder. Discipline is the thing I think that we all need in order to. Continue to grow as artists and to actually accomplish the things in our artwork that we want.
Brett:
And we see the. Value in discipline because when you have discipline you have limitations and limitations. Help us focus and.
Sage:
Well, they they address the limitations, right? The limitations that you have in your life, limitations and how much time you have or how much energy you. Have at the. End of the day, if there are a lot of limitations and that’s where discipline comes in that you actually say I’m going to do this because it enriches my life. It makes me feel more fulfilled.
Brett:
Right. And sometimes you you get highly motivated to employ a discipline because you see the negative consequences of not having it. And when you don’t have.
Sage:
Of yet.
Brett:
Of it and something very disappointing happens. You have to want whatever you can’t get so much that you’re forgoing your impulses, and you learn to manage the impulses.
Sage:
I think that that in itself is a bit of a discipline because you may enjoy what you do, but you may feel more pressure to do other things. Like for me, if I have other people waiting on me, that is my priority, you know, and I will not do my artwork and I will not do my writing. Yeah, so.
Brett:
That makes sense. We’re very, very accountable.
Sage:
When my week starts out, even though I don’t usually use Mondays to work on the podcast, that’s one of my creative days, because if I don’t set time aside, I don’t get it done half the. But the podcast is on my mind because I know there’s people that are waiting to listen to it. I know that people are thinking on Friday night or Saturday morning or whatever, they’re gonna have this podcast to listen to. And so you listen, make me, like, want to get that done. And so that for me, I have to find the discipline.
Brett:
It feels you, yeah.
Sage:
Even though I want to do it, but I need to instill discipline in me to also take care of my own stuff. One of the issues I had when creating the magazine, it was all about the magazine.
Speaker
And I love.
Sage:
Doing it but I wasn’t doing my own work. And so, not only did I have the physical injuries from the magazine work, I also wasn’t doing my own work for so long, and I realized that was not happy. So in any case, discipline comes in many forms and covers different areas in our life that even if we love what we do and we’re very strongly motivated to do what we do, sometimes other things can look like a priority in our life. And so discipline will come into play there.
Brett:
And you. I don’t want to over discipline where things get rigid and they don’t. They’re not organic either. You wanna a combination of, like, healthy? This isn’t there, like a healthier version of discipline.
Sage:
I think that’s a matter well. I mean, I think anything can be overdone.
Brett:
You could be really militant with yourself about some things.
Sage:
But people, they, that’s how they. Work. I think some people just operate that way. Some people feel more comfortable. I think with very rigid schedule. And I kind of admire them honestly. And then the other thing that I think is not easy is criticism, both giving and getting criticism, especially getting, especially getting. Criticism. It’s hard. I mean, I love criticism, which people think is weird, but it’s just such an opportunity to me to see things from someone else’s point of view. And I just find it fascinating to hear what other people see because it’s like I would never. See it that way.
Brett:
As long as you take criticism with the grain, a certain grain. Of salt.
Sage:
Yeah. You wanna like, weigh it, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But it’s never easy when people say you could do better.
Brett:
You want. You have to, but if you take it as like gospel. Then you could be easily crushed.
Sage:
And all criticism is some version of you could do better. I mean, there’s constructive criticism where people tell you. You’ve done well with this. This and this, but then it’s usually countered by some areas they feel might need improvement. It’s still kind of like ohh, you know, somewhere in the back of your mind. Even if you take criticism really well, you would really rather have people go, Oh my gosh, you’re amazing. Your work is amazing. That that’s incredible you.
Brett:
It always feels good.
Speaker
Know that.
Sage:
Feels good but. Criticism is going to be difficult because it does. Push on the ego. So sometimes it does sting, right? And that’s OK the. Sting can actually drive you. It drives me. The desire to do better is a necessary part of the growth of one’s artwork. And as an artist, I’m I personally have no idea how people think they can improve in their artwork or the writing or whatever creative thing is or their business or anything. Without some constructive criticism, without getting someone else’s point of view, how do you know how the rest of the? World is seeing things so. I mean you try to communicate to the. As the world. How do you know how your communication is coming across?
Brett:
You need feedback in order to to know if what you’re doing is effective.
Sage:
I think so, and I know it’s not easy, but I. Think it’s necessary? You know, I think if you want to grow as an artist, it’s going to be very hard to grow significantly without some outside input. It’s such a treasure. It sounds cheesy, but it is. It’s such a treasure to have that viewpoint from somebody else. You only have your limited viewpoint from which to assess. Work, but it doesn’t mean that other people’s viewpoints are correct. But seeing what they see allows you to determine possible points of improvement, and you see your work in a new way when trying to understand it through someone else’s eyes. Difficult or not, I think criticism is necessary. So those are the things I think. That aren’t easy in art. And then I made a list. Of what should be easy. And I’ll tell you something. Right now it’s a short list. It’s really short. So my one thing on the list of what could be easy for in artwork where you can have an expectation of it being easy and reach for that and it’s a good thing is the manipulation of the material. Basically learning your skills. It takes discipline and skill for most of us to master our materials. But what a fun time we can have in the process of doing that. Once we have enough skill to control our materials, sure, it can be easy. It’s like easy for Brett to draw his characters. Or so I was working on some short stories the other day. And it’s of. All the things that I do, I would say short stories are probably the easiest thing for me to write. They literally come out like already. Written. It’s really weird. But it’s only easy now because I continue to work on all the hard stuff like I continue to try to improve my skill and edit and do all the hard stuff. So that now at least that part. Can be easy. So the manipulation of my materials, there is words, but in our whatever our material is can end up being easy if you. Work at it, but you still. Go through a process in a journey. To get to the point where the work itself can be easy. Now this is not to say that it’s always easy. After a certain point, there are days where things are easy and other days we feel like you’re just wrestling with your materials for some reason. And sometimes it’s because we’re challenging ourselves. We’re pushing ourselves to try something that we hadn’t done before, and because of that, we struggle with the material. And I think that’s fantastic. That means you’re exploring and you’re playing and. They’re trying something different, for instance.
Brett:
Well, it’s important. To be playful is what you’re saying.
Sage:
I think it well, it is important to be playful and I think if everything is difficult, you might give. So like I’m working on reacquiring my painting skills, which I haven’t done for a long time, and I’m. I’m loving it, but it can be. Really hard because I. Especially like when you used to be able. To do something and now you. Can’t do it. You just want to jump right back into the time when you knew how to do it.
Brett:
But you need time to to do it, yeah.
Sage:
Yeah. And I mean, I think it’ll come back quicker than did when I was young and trying to learn how to paint. But I give myself plenty of time just to play, and I’m not in a position of being challenged. I’m just throwing paint at these pieces of just so cardboards I don’t even care about. The value of of.
Brett:
In the jar she’s throwing it against.
Speaker
The piece.
Sage:
Like the entire jars you know.
Brett:
The wall you shattered glass everywhere.
Sage:
That itself is beautiful on. The floor? No. But allowing yourself to play and not have anything super challenging and.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah.
Sage:
Be a child and just let your instincts run wild with your materials. I think that is so valuable and I don’t know. Maybe necessary. Playing is important and I think playing should be easy.
Brett:
You know, people define play in different. Ways, I suppose, but.
Sage:
Probably thought about that, but it’s one of the. Things you’ve done. Really. Well, you have so many sketchbooks and it’s not like you don’t have a sketch, but you just let yourself play. You just let your mind do whatever it’s going to do. And The thing is about play and exploration, I think. And you can tell me if you don’t experience this, but I think through the process of exploration play, you discover a lot of things. That can then become challenging concepts for your. That worked. You know, so like you can start working on something like sometimes I’m doing this, playing around stuff with the paint, and then all of a sudden I see something I’m like, oh, that’s cool. This could be this. And my training kicks in and I start working out the composition and the color combinations and all that stuff, but only because I played to a certain point that I started seeing a pattern, or I started seeing an. Image that I wanted to become a. And so then I can take the play time and it does become serious and does become a little bit more challenging and maybe not as easy to do. But the play led there.
Brett:
I guess it depends on. Your attention of the end product.
Sage:
But I think the thing with play is that and maybe this is just depends on how you approach it. I don’t think play should have an end product. I think the play is the end product. Like you yeah, you play and you explore. So like when I was doing polymer, I had this bin of just pieces.
Brett:
The process of it.
Sage:
This stuff I. Just made-up stuff you know, and then I’d throw it in this bin and they were never finished pieces like I could have made earrings out of them if I made another one. But I do want to make another one. I just want to explore it so I don’t have an end product in mind when I’m exploring in plain. Sometimes something comes up and maybe that’s part of it. Maybe it’s like we also have a society that feels like we should be productive. Being productive is good. It feels good. It’s very something you can be proud. Of but plain is in itself the product. I think you play to explore and to figure out things and discover things, but you don’t have to make anything specific out of it. But I think sometimes people feel like every time they sit down to make something. At their studio table. That it should. Result in a finished piece and I think we should get away from that cause why not have? Sometimes we’re just playing and things are easy because you’re just exploring cause you’ll discover a lot by like, letting go, I think. And then so I guess there’s one other thing under the maybe this could be easy. Is when we’re talking about talent. Some people find certain things just innate, may use bread as an example. Again cause he’s. Right here. When we were young, we were in high school and he first was talking to me. We were sitting there and he’s telling me about his drawing and things that he does and I’m like, so can you just draw anything? He’s like, I don’t know. He’s. What would you like me to draw? And I said. Can you draw a? Again, he’s like I’ve never drawn a dragon. Before as he’s. Drawing a dragon, and by the time he’s done talking about how he’s never drawn a dragon before, he had this full on Dragon that it could have been done for Disney. I was like, blown away. I still have. It somewhere like.
Brett:
It’s so funny. I I vaguely remember that.
Sage:
But you have a very innate talent for that kind of drawing that’s been with you since you were young. Now you’ve been drawing since you were very young as well, so there’s practice behind it, you know.
Brett:
I just like doing it, and so I’d want.
Sage:
You love doing it.
Brett:
To do it.
Sage:
And you just keep doing it and you own your skill, yeah.
Brett:
A lot. And that just evolved.
Sage:
But there’s a difference between practice. And talent Brett was talking to his nephew and.
Brett:
At 12 years old, he was not wanting to pursue any kind of art because he had watched a lot of child prodigies and he thought ohh well, yeah.
Sage:
AT43 doing like making music and drawing art and all this stuff on TikTok and YouTube and.
Brett:
So he thought, why? Why bother? Why should I start it’s? Too late, he said. It was.
Sage:
It’s too late. It’s too late. It’s like it’s never too late. Yeah, right. Exactly. And so this whole thing.
Brett:
Too for him. I think it’s been sad.
Sage:
That were being sold.
Brett:
He got over it, but.
Sage:
Yeah, he did. He did get over it. So he’s he’s a great kid and very, very. Creative, but we are sold. A certain idea about what these people can do, and it is amazing that these people can do this stuff at a very young. Age, but chances are he could have done that at that age too. That’s just not what his parents pushed. Him for and. That’s perfectly fine, because we know some people who like one of your daughter’s friends growing up was a champion competitive ice skater and violinist. And honestly, she was not the happiest.
Brett:
Ice and also violinists, yeah.
Sage:
Girl you ever met? She had a lot of difficulties socially, and she had a lot of stress. It’s not always the best thing. And ohh, I wish I had started doing this when I was three years old. Then I could be, you know, a master. If I had started music when I was three, I could be Amadeus Mozart. One day. But is it worth it? Because the experience that we have and the memories that we have, after all, those are the things that are important. Those are the things we get to keep no matter what. And I think it’s important to put value on that experience and the memories that we have from those experiences and not just on the end product that we get. From it so. Results. Well, yeah, we’re very result oriented. Society which. Which can be good in some ways, but it’s always about balance, right? It’s always about moderation. It doesn’t matter when you start. It doesn’t matter how anyone else is doing, you just do what you do for yourself, for that experience. For that to enrich your life and because you’re driven to do it and it’s not going to be easy all the time. And I don’t think looking for an easy way to do something is going to be a. The value to you as much as looking for the challenges without getting frustrated, looking for those challenges to work your way through to. Who growth as an artist and to be doing something that you really, really value because you did go through the struggle because you did have to climb that mountain and get to that peak and and then when you’re up there, it’s just like, it’s amazing, right?
Brett:
Yes, I think you can lose yourself in and then you naturally want to grow. It and do it.
Sage:
I think we don’t want things to be easy as much as we want to be able to know that we can be successful if we keep working at it and be frustrating. So you felt like you’re not going to succeed at things you keep trying. But take those challenges as the gifts that they are, because they’re going to motivate you. They’re going to be the thing that puts tremendous value in the work that you do when you get past them, or even if you don’t get past them, you have to move on to something else. That’s fine. It’s a learning experience, and it’s an experience that you can take with you. Into the next project and the next level of the work that you do. But if you just try to make everything easy, I think you miss out on just so much. But do you have anything else to? Say before we wrap up this crazy conversation.
Brett:
It’s so easy. To do art. It’s so easy to do the art. It’s it’s it’s no, not really. I I agree with a lot of that. You had a lot to say about it. It’s really interesting. You have a lot of passion around this subject. So yeah.
Sage:
I do like I said, the reason I do what I do is because I want people to have that experience of elation. That you get. From succeeding at something that wasn’t easy and that literally is why I started the magazines. Because everything out there for craft artists in polymer and. Our jewelry was all about. Giving them an easy way. Make it and like but, but what about the whole? Trying to make art part? What about the whole struggling and the self-expression and the and the putting yourself out there and the risk that you take?
Speaker
Those are good values.
Sage:
Yeah, it’s because the reward is amazing. The reward is just so amazing. But you have to be willing to take the risk that you may not accomplish what you’re after. You may fail at certain things. I I don’t know what. The proportion is once you become a long practiced artist, but I know when you’re a newer artist I would say if you are succeeding at more than 20% of the things that you attempt, I think you’re head of the curve. You know, and maybe it gets to a point where you’re succeeding at 80%, maybe that’s kind of like the far end, but you’re never always going to succeed, and that’s OK and it’s fantastic. There’s so much that you learned from that.
Brett:
Probably learn more from failures.
Sage:
Absolutely. We I absolutely believe that. I just don’t think the successes are nearly as sweet if we didn’t have failures as well.
Brett:
It’s all. It’s all part of the process, you know.
Sage:
Yeah. That’s why we like sweet and salty man. Got out of the contrast. Contrasted contrast. Yeah, exactly so. Well anyways, Brett, thank. You so much for joining me today on this conversation, which wasn’t easy, wasn’t easy when we started.
Brett:
Cool. Yeah, it’s been fun.
Sage:
Out, Han said.
Brett:
Yeah, this is a harder one, I think.
Sage:
Yeah, and it was a little difficult after I edit you guys listening to this probably won’t hear some. Of the things that we struggle to. Get out some of them. But this was a struggle. This this we talked longer than usual on this, trying to find the right words and the right points.
Brett:
You have a. There is there’s layers of of a complicated, you know, reasons and thoughts behind. Every conceit that we, you know, that we sort. Of like, oh, it could be this. It’s this, it’s that, it’s this, it’s that.
Sage:
Yeah, it’s it’s not a straightforward black and white subject about it being easy and and people are different, you know, like some things are easier for you or for me than for other people. The things that other people struggle with are different than, you know, the next person struggles. But the the fact is the struggle is not a bad thing. And just I think that’s the take away. Right. Don’t.
Brett:
Yeah, and this this.
Sage:
Avoid struggle.
Brett:
And this conversation is sort of a a reflection of that.
Sage:
Yeah, the fact that this.
Brett:
You know cause. Boys, we’ve been struggling. No, it wasn’t that bad. It really wasn’t. But it. But it was. It was more reaching and questioning it.
Speaker
Was a struggle.
Sage:
OK, wasn’t that bad? Yeah. And for me, just trying to stay awake cause I didn’t. Get any sleep last night.
Brett:
Yeah, yeah, that doesn’t help.
Sage:
But I was going to. Do it because. It was going to be a challenge and if this is a successful podcast after. This I will be so. Happy. I’ll be amazingly happy. So anyways. Well, I want to thank you all for joining us for this conversation. I absolutely do want to hear from you if you have things to say about the subject matter. I know similar comments might have been a little controversial. You may not have agreed with them. Please write me. I really, truly want to hear from you. You can write me at the sagearts.com website on the contact page. You can jump in at Facebook or Instagram under the Sage Arts podcast pages and put something in post or direct message. Me. And if you are finding value in this podcast, you are welcome to give back by using the PayPal or Buy Me coffee donation buttons, which you’ll find halfway down the homepage as the sagearts.com or all of these links are available in your show notes or Description section on your podcast player. Also, if you can stop and just hit that. Follow button if you want to get notices about when the next episodes are out. It also helps with pushing us up on the search engine list so we can have more people take part of this conversation and I haven’t seen some growth and have been seeing more follows, so I really appreciate you all doing. If you want any of the site information or want notices through e-mail, there is a newsletter list that goes out Sunday morning to let you know what the new episode is about and if there’s any additional material they’ll be in those newsletters. That’s one of the only ways you can be guaranteed of getting that extra material, so look for the news and notices button on the homepage of the Sage arts. Or in your. Well, thank you, Brett for.
Brett:
Joining welcome. That was fun.
Sage:
Yeah. And you all out there, please do go. Out and take up those challenges and. If it’s easy and. Fun, great. And if it’s a challenge, just go for it. It’s going to give you. So many rewards. And then just don’t forget to feed the muse along the way. Be true to your weirdness, and we’ll see you again next time. On the sage arts.
