How often do you get into flow? Do you wish you could get into the zone at will? In this episode, Brett and I discuss the concept of flow, what it is, the many benefits it has for artists, how to get it on demand, and what to do when flow is difficult to achieve. There’s also something about a 70s waitress, walking funny, and Cheetos. But don’t let those distract you. It’s an information packed episode with maybe a dash or two of giggling so come join us in the podcast studio!
Other Resources mentioned:
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
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CREDITS:
Cover design by Sage; Border Illustration by Olga Kostenko
Cover illustration by Brett Varon
Music by Playsound
For Transcript click on the episode here: https://rss.com/podcasts/thesagearts/
TRANSCRIPTION:
Audio file
Ep034 The Flow Mindset wBrett.mp3
Transcript
Sage:
One of the.
Sage:
Key things about getting into flow state when we talk about how to do it is that you enjoy it and that you’re accomplishing something that means something to you and it doesn’t have to mean a lot it doesn’t have. To be a big achievement.
Brett:
It’s so pleasurable.
Brett:
How could it not mean something to you?
Sage:
Hello all, my beautiful, mindful creative friends out there. Thank you for joining me on the Sage Arts podcast. This is sage and I am in the studio today with Brett and Ember. Ember wanna say hi. Say hi. Ohh good. Girl, thank you. So now you you’ve been. Introduced to the. Room full of creatures.
Sage:
I can’t invite you.
Sage:
In my listeners, there’s not a whole lot of room. I guess you could sit on the floor with Ember. Ember, you want company? OK, lay down. See how much room? You take up. Oh, she’s yeah. She’s got all kinds of room. So if you want come in and like.
Sage:
You know, hang out on the dog bed.
Sage:
With Ember that. She’s she’d be all for it, but yeah, I have been wanting. To talk about today’s subject for a while, it’s the subject of flow and we’re going to spend some time defining it, talking about what it means, talking about why you want to bother with it. And how to get into it etc etc. I started today out by asking Brett what he thinks of flow.
Brett:
Yeah, but you brought up flow. I was thinking of the waitress and the sitcom Alice from the 70s.
Sage:
And I thought.
Brett:
Ohh yeah, I know flow and then there’s this whole other thing that flow means.
Sage:
So I have a lot to say about, but not the waitress. Apparently Brett’s going to be Comic Relief today because I’m.
Sage:
Not sure he.
Sage:
Has a lot. To say about flow when it.
Sage:
Comes to making art, but we’re going. To we’re going to work on that.
Brett:
Well, we will see, won’t we?
Sage:
Well, see, I know exactly.
Brett:
That sounds like a challenge.
Sage:
Ohh but it’s but.
Brett:
Uh, no.
Sage:
You need a challenge when you’re trying to get into flow state.
Brett:
I suppose that’s what, that’s.
Sage:
So yeah, yeah.
Brett:
What we were talking about and yes.
Sage:
But yeah, so I was actually introduced to the concept of flow through a. Freelance client of mine. He brought up this book flow. There’s a guy named Mihai, Chicks at Mihai and I can only say that because I wrote it out phonetically with Chick sent me.
Brett:
Such an unusual name.
Sage:
Yeah, it. Well, he’s Czechoslovakian psychologist. Yeah, but he wrote the book on flow. It’s called. He and his staff researched it through interviews and observation for years.
Brett:
It’s like 30 years ago.
Sage:
Book was written in 1990. 1990 so over 30 years ago.
Sage:
So this is not a.
Sage:
New concept, but it’s a really important concept. I don’t think a lot of people. Talk about why. You want to aim for this? I mean we. All know like. We get into the zone. It feels really good, but it ends up sounding like it. It was a special occasion like. This is unusual. Event that I got into flow today when I was in the studio and honestly. The ideally you should be getting into flow on a regular basis is extremely helpful for you as a creative. It’s extremely helpful, even if you’re not a creative, actually getting into flow, whatever it is, makes you more efficient, keeps you more focused, you get more work done. Usually better work done because of the extreme focus. Of the nature. Of this particular mental state. So in any case. That’s the kind of subject matter we’re going to get into, so hold on for just a second while I do a little business, we’re going to thank some people and. I’ll try to keep. This super short cause we’re a. Lot to get to today. Thank you to everyone who sent messages or left comments or emailed about Kimba. I so appreciate the kind words and the thoughts we’re we’re doing. OK, Ember is starting to settle more, but I do need to get her to like the dog park so she can see other dogs, but and just cool down here first or. I miraculously need to. Get up early enough, I. Was sent several little stories this past week or two, Laurie Fagan noted after the making space episode. After she listened to that one last week that she actually does make space about an hour every Sunday morning just to think about what she’s doing, where she’s going, and why she’s doing what she’s doing to ground herself for the week. I just thought that was an excellent practice and maybe we can all pick some time, maybe once a week, to ask the what and the why around what we do and why we do it. So we don’t get caught up. In just doing what? We’ve always done out of inertia.
Brett:
That’s great.
Sage:
Just don’t. Be afraid to. Shift gears when needed. So thanks Lori for that. Mostly other stories were about dogs and the relationship with us, which is, you know, so touching. It is crazy just how much we love our furries. I think it’s because it’s a pretty uncomplicated relationship. We take care of them, they take care of us. Nobody owes anyone anything. You know, etcetera. Might be able to learn anything or to to better our relationships with others. Alright, so thank you for those. Stories, please keep sending. Them and your comments and anything else you want to let me know about. You can write me on the contact page at the sagearts.com or on Facebook or Instagram at the Sage Arts Podcast. And if you appreciate what I do here and want to give back, go a little ways down the homepage of the sagearts.com website to find those, buy me a coffee and PayPal buttons. All these links and more are in the show notes or description section of whatever you are listening to this from, OK.
Sage:
Let’s get into this.
Sage:
Subject about flow, so for me it’s a very. Important state of mind. It’s kind of a goal. For my creative sessions in whatever I do, I think most of us as creatives have experienced this state of being. But there are times when it’s very hard to achieve it. Sometimes we say things like I just wasn’t into my work today or I couldn’t get into a rhythm.
Sage:
We all have.
Sage:
Good days and bad days on this but. I don’t think it’s necessary for us to write off those bad days when we’re having a hard time getting into that kind of ideal creative state of mind. I think it helps to understand what the state of mind actually is and what happens when we get into it, what the conditions are that bring it on and this can help you get into your work or find your rhythm when it’s not so easy to slip into it. So kind of. The things you want to have in your mind today is just like think about the times that you do get into flow. What you’re doing, you know, how often do you get into flow or do you get into the zone or whatever you want to call it? And are there times when you find it difficult and why? And we’re going to actually hopefully answer some of those questions for you as we go. So we’re going to start with. What is flow? And it’s not a waitress, Brett.
Brett:
And that was my life.
Sage:
OK, it might be a, it might be. A waitress too, but.
Brett:
Was my last recollection of it.
Sage:
Yeah, but I asked him this morning like what is flowing and your definition was ohh, that’s just like when I.
Brett:
When I get focused and into. My work.
Sage:
Right. Which is which?
Sage:
Is true.
Brett:
And it kind of comes through me to a degree when I step out of my own way, it sort of has its own motivation.
Sage:
Yeah, you identified it. As the kind of unique way in which you work, your unique process that you’re in your particular state of creating. Which I thought was interesting that you were thinking about it in terms of your individual approach to making art, which I guess can be true to a certain extent because getting into the zone is actually different for everybody. Getting into flow is different for everybody, but the more specific things that I want to talk about today, just so we’re clear about what it is. And like I said, the term was established by. Knee high cheek sit, knee high. He developed the the term because everybody they talked to would talk about things in terms of it’s flowing or moving effortlessly or time flowing effortlessly. And it’s just simply the mental state of being in which you are fully immersed in doing something, experiencing unwavering focus and. A fulfilling satisfaction in the process in flow, we experience like a great inner clarity, a loss of time and effortless motivation. And a what I think of as purposeful contentment. It’s often referred to as serenity, but I think sometimes you get into the zone in a very like, high energy mode. So I don’t think of it as serenity, but you feel very content in what you’re doing. You feel like you’re. Where you’re supposed to be, right?
Brett:
So yeah, in the Ted talk, he. Referred to it as ecstasy.
Sage:
Yeah, you did use ecstasy. We we watched a couple of videos with Michael Checksy Mihai talking about his. You know. But yeah, he used ecstasy as the word. Of course we think of ecstasy. A lot of the. Times as being like, you know, like.
Brett:
So much pleasure, but it is.
Sage:
Crazy, passionate things.
Brett:
Very it is very.
Brett:
Pleasurable state of.
Sage:
It is very pleasurable.
Brett:
And I didn’t know it was a whole study. You know, something that I’ve always done. I didn’t know there was a whole study about it since. 1990 kind of thing.
Sage:
And before, because he. Wrote the book after he did all the studies. So yeah.
Brett:
And it goes way back to was he saying Marcus Aurelius?
Sage:
Yeah, yeah, there is. There’s mentions of these kinds of experiences in ancient Greece and was like Egyptians and German philosophers.
Brett:
Egyptians, right, like Incas, like every.
Sage:
Yeah, this whole idea of flow is not new, it’s just how it’s been talked about, the terminology that’s been used.
Sage:
So really quickly, I’ll.
Sage:
Go through the circumstances under which. Which I mean I said that you would fall into flow or get into flow. And is primarily when you’re challenged, but not so much so as to be frustrated and that you have tasks that engage inherent skills that you have or learn skills that you have. So he has an actual list. There’s like 10 points that he found tended to be presence in most all states of flow. So they include things like. The activity is intrinsically rewarding to the person doing it to. There are also clear goals that, while challenging, are still attainable. So goals that you know you’re going to be able to reach or that are easily reached through the process and then you realize. You can do them so you keep doing them. Three, there is. A complete focus on the activity itself and then for you experience feelings of personal control over the situation and the outcome. So you feel like you’re not out of control. You’re not wondering if you’re going to be able to do it, but that you feel like you’re going to be able to do it. You have feelings of serenity. Like I said, they use serenity in this. I say contentment just because of the high energy potential, and that there’s also with that serenity kind of a loss. Of self consciousness. You’re not thinking about yourself, so you’re not being judgy, which is really cool and really important. You also get immediate feedback, as in you’re working on the work and you can see the accomplishment in the process of what you’re doing. So you get that feedback of this is good work. This is something I am completing and accomplishing. You know to a level that is satisfying. For me.
Brett:
Yeah, on that, on that Ted talk, we saw a quote from an Olympic figure skater. And when she was doing her routine where it was, everything was coming together. And she was in the moment, 100%. That’s what they call the. Ecstasy of it.
Sage:
Yeah, you can see where the.
Brett:
Word. Yeah, because.
Sage:
Ecstasy. I’m sitting for that.
Brett:
You know, it’s all just happening, is you with all the training and the skills that you had it all came. Together in that moment.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And let’s see. So seven, you. Know that the task is doable. And there’s a balance between your skill levels and the challenge that has been presented. So those two meet and you’re able to accomplish what you’re trying to do.
Brett:
And that’s new to me.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah.
Brett:
It was interesting.
Sage:
And eight you experience a lack of awareness of your physical needs, you.
Sage:
Know like you.
Sage:
Like, haven’t eat right.
Brett:
I can’t stand eating. I can’t stand it eating it.
Sage:
Me too.
Brett:
So in the way drinking water, all that stuff out the bathroom, going to the bathroom is the worst.
Sage:
Ohh, drinking water I’m good for.
Sage:
Definitely peeing.
Brett:
And I’ll I’ll just hold it because I’m just.
Sage:
I’d like you to forget.
Brett:
Like I’m not getting up right now, yeah.
Sage:
I’m doing things I know. But in when you’re in a flow.
Sage:
State and that.
Sage:
Really enjoyable state that you’re like. I just love being where I’m at. Everything else is complete. Secondary, because there is no room in your brain and in the stuff that I was reading, it sound like new room in your body. Your your body has its own kind of brain. I don’t know how to explain that, and someday maybe we’ll get into that. But your brain is not the only thing that like thinks and has imperatives that it. Puts forth but you. You’re so focused on what you’re doing when you’re in a flow state that none of that. Stuff matters and. You or Physiology literally puts it all aside.
Brett:
Oh, I have a.
Brett:
Story about Tex Avery with with that where. He was a famous animator.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah.
Brett:
Know and he would work for such long.
Brett:
The spells and he would just not want to go down and pee because the the bathroom was like out the building they they worked in bungalows in the 1940s, so he had to run out the building and then across the way. And that whole ordeal you bump into people it. Takes you out. Of the state, you know.
Sage:
Yeah, completely.
Brett:
And so he actually damaged his bladder because it it came like he would knock.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah, don’t do that.
Brett:
People out of the way and you know, papers will go flying and.
Brett:
Bouncing on the walls, it really was it it.
Sage:
It’s like a cartoon itself.
Brett:
Was, but yeah, yeah.
Sage:
So don’t do.
Sage:
That, yeah.
Brett:
That that’s that’s not ideal, but it shows the. Kind of focus that.
Sage:
Yeah, the, the hyper focus, we don’t do that.
Brett:
People can get into.
Sage:
I’ve read some stuff about this that when you’re in a flow state, it actually shuts down a lot of your Physiology because you’re so focused. Everything is servicing the activity that you’re in, I mean.
Brett:
Figure skating right now, I’m not going.
Brett:
To go floss my teeth.
Sage:
See, I think get into flow state would be a great diet approach. Do stuff that gets in the flow.
Sage:
State cause then.
Sage:
You don’t think about food you don’t eat? You don’t snack. And like I could really use that cause like I used to coach people. If you’re gonna set up a studio or whatnot, do not set it up anywhere near your kitchen. Well, guess where my studio.
Brett:
It’s not that far. I guess it was.
Sage:
Is off.
Brett:
Right outside of it, yeah.
Sage:
The kitchen. If I have to go.
Sage:
Anywhere outside of the studio I have. To go through the kitchen.
Brett:
So we have lots of healthy foods in the house, some use for the belly.
Sage:
We try, yes, we try.
Brett:
It is a good thing.
Sage:
We have a lot.
Brett:
No Cheetos.
Sage:
Of chocolates.
Brett:
I’m not a big fan of Cheetos anyway.
Sage:
Yeah, no cheetahs. We have two more things in this list of 10 things that are present in most states of flow. So #9, there is a strong concentration and focus attention, which is basically what we’ve been saying. It’s really so different than any other time you’re like, I’m focused on what I’m doing, but you are, you’re not just focused on doing nothing else matters. You’re like tunnel vision, you know, and because of that number 10, you experience timelessness or a distorted sense of time that involves feeling so focused on the present that you lose track of the time passing.
Brett:
Is amazing, yeah.
Sage:
Like you don’t know. How much time has passed? I mean, how many times have I gotten up from? The studio and been like how the.
Sage:
Hell, is it 9:00 o’clock.
Brett:
Yeah, it’s like 4:00 o’clock already, yeah.
Sage:
I understand you know. So those are the things that tend to be common. It’s intrinsically rewarding. You have clear goals. You have a complete focus on the activity itself. You feel like you have personal control. You have feelings. Of contentment. You get immediate feedback from the work that you’ve done. You know the task is doable and you feel that the skill level and the challenge is is a good level for you. You experience the lack of awareness of your physical needs and strong concentration on focused attention and you experience timelessness. So all those things tend to come into play when you go into a flow state. So hopefully that gives you a good picture of what it is that we’re specifically talking about, because I didn’t even think that other people had different definitions of it. But I have been looking at it reading about it, I read that book. I’ve been doing stuff.
Brett:
Yes, super interesting.
Sage:
For my freelance client for a while.
Brett:
I had no idea all that existed.
Sage:
Yeah. Yeah. Well.
Brett:
I mean, so there must be some approach, some discipline, that you’re going to talk about today.
Sage:
I am going to talk a little bit about I think you.
Brett:
Ohh, you know I’m ahead of the I’m ahead of the curve, so do tell.
Sage:
Just know me. So the first thing I think the first thing. People might want to know, and I I guess, like when I’m writing this stuff up, I always think about some cynical person going. Is she telling me this? I don’t know why I have that in. The back of my. Mind, but no, I mean it. It’s good. Like why? Why is it important to get into flow state? Does it? Really matter. Can you just? Can you be an artist and never get? Into flow state. I’d say probably, yeah, but one of the reasons that people talk about flow state so much is because it makes you more efficient. It allows you to increase. Your abilities and your skills much more readily, or much more consistently than if you didn’t ever go into flow state. So we can talk about all the. Reasons why? Why? Would you think, Brett, why would you think flow state is important and put you on spot, man?
Brett:
Uh oh. OK, I have an answer for that. For me it’s. Like I get out of my own way when I’m in. When I I guess now I realize it’s flow state. It’s when I get into what I’m doing, headphones are on. I just transport myself into whatever I’m doing to a degree that I don’t want any interruptions and I need complete isolation. I need to have an environment that I know. So I’m not going to have an. Which is a hard thing to get, especially with like the phone alerts going off and but I do have my blocks of time where that happens. Yeah, and it may not come right away. But when I sit there and I, I look at the task at hand, like I’m talking about my professional work. But in my personal work, I do the same thing.
Sage:
Yeah, you do.
Brett:
But it is. There’s a slightly different pressure to it because in my professional work. You know, I have deadlines and expectations on me. That are certain.
Sage:
Really push you? Yeah.
Brett:
Motivation, but I get past that and then it becomes a different kind of. Would you call it like? An intrinsic motivation. Once I really enjoy what I’m doing, that’s the best part because it doesn’t. Feel like work anymore?
Sage:
Yeah, right.
Brett:
So you know, I’m getting paid, so I have. To keep that. A big secret because I’m not actually working, yeah.
Sage:
Secret from your, from your consciousness.
Brett:
I’m actually really enjoying that process.
Sage:
One of the key things about getting into flow state when we talk about how to do it is that you enjoy it and that you’re accomplishing something that means something to you and it doesn’t have to mean a lot. It doesn’t have to be a big achievement.
Brett:
It’s so pleasurable.
Brett:
How could it not mean something to you?
Sage:
Well, like what kind of flow states don’t include art like I. Love to weed?
Brett:
Yes, filling weeds.
Sage:
It’s just really weird but.
Sage:
Really weeds, man, it’s so Zen you can. To get into it and it’s kind, it kind of borders on the doing nothing thing because my brain doesn’t have to be overly engaged in it, but it’s very satisfying and I can figure, you know, I can stop figure out why is this weed like so difficult. What tool am I going to use and to get it out? And it’s not a high level accomplishment, but it’s very satisfying. So that’s, I think what you’re after is that it’s very satisfying. So you can get into flow states that don’t have to do with art. You can get to flow states in all kinds of things. It’s very important in business. They try to get people to achieve flow state because it’s the most efficient way to work. But again you know. It it depends on whether they enjoy the work. Literally the parameters for getting into flow state could be done with anything so, but let’s first talk about the why flow state. For one, it makes you happy and it leaves you with a sense of fulfillment. And who doesn’t want to be happy? So if you can achieve happiness. And satisfaction and something that is controllable for. You why would? To do it right. It also reduces stress. It pushes your worries and your anxiety away because there’s no room for anything else except for the task at hand. When you’re in. The flow state, so it is a stress reducer that’s always useful for this. Day and age it. Can also help you regulate emotions as flow. Dials down your emotional turmoil. It puts it into a kind. Of a calmer, more stable. State. It also helps to feed motivation because flow is something that we look forward to, right? You like getting into the zone you like being like everything’s coming together, right? Especially if we know how to get into it and we don’t have to just be like ohh, it’s like some days I’m good with it and some days I’m not and I’ll talk to you about how you can get into it so. We look forward to it if you can actually make it happen. Flow means complete focus, which increases your performance in a task which means you have more efficient work and more efficient work of course means that you can get more done. Most of us would like to get more done in the time that we have, so that’s. Useful as well. And since a big part of getting into flow is being challenged, achieving flow means you must push your skills and ideas to keep engaged. And as you push your abilities and hone your eye or whatnot. You improve really. Hardly even. Knowing that that’s what’s going on because. Enjoyment makes it feel effortless. And then it can inspire and improve your creativity, partly in pursuit of that sense of enjoyment. Like, you know, most of us like to let our imagination run wild, right? But it also it improves access to your imagination simply because you are doing it so much and so readily. And then also once you’re in the state. You don’t need to get motivated or keep yourself motivated. You just are motivated as a result of the enjoyment and because you’re being challenged and achieving results. And that sense of accomplishment keeps pushing you to keep work. I think you also get less judgy of yourself flow has been found to cause a decrease in activity of the prefrontal cortex of the brain, which is essentially the higher cognition functions, including self consciousness. So that means you’re less self-conscious, you’re less judgy. You can set that editor that. That critic aside and just do the work. So those are, there’s probably a few more reasons I feel like I’m forgetting something on that list.
Brett:
Look my question for you is, do skills come into play with how readily you can get into a flow state?
Sage:
Yes, that’s part of the like the.
Sage:
Right.
Sage:
Dynamic of how flow works.
Brett:
Like I I think of the after the piano a little bit. And you know, if my figures didn’t know where to go if I didn’t know certain basic skills of playing, then it would be really hard to get into flow state.
Sage:
Right.
Brett:
So knowing what I know I can do that because I know just enough to create music that way.
Sage:
Right, right. So that leads directly into the conversation about how do you. Find flow. Where is that?
Brett:
It’s a convergence of all of those circumstances coming together. I think in a moment and making certain skills certain passions.
Sage:
Well, it is so.
Brett:
And then when I reach my limit and you talked about challenge where things become a little bit harder, it can throw me out of the flow where I start to experience some anxiety or some frustration.
Sage:
Right, right.
Brett:
But so when I hit that now. In a way, after our conversation, I’m realizing when I get. Anxious, I realize I’m probably at the peak of my skills of the challenge, and if it’s over my my skill set at the moment, then maybe I kind of back wind and and get back into a flow state and push myself to learn those things.
Sage:
Of the challenge, Jeff.
Brett:
Maybe down the line.
Sage:
So we can talk about the things that we were. Learning this morning. About the overlap of two primary things that get you into flow, which is that you need to be challenged and you need to have a skill set that can meet that challenge. So the challenge aspect is that whatever you’re doing should not be so challenging as to be frustrating, but not have enough challenge that you’re not bored. So on the like he did a chart where the vertical line was how much you were challenged and the horizontal line was how. Your skill set, so if the challenge is low. So and it requires pretty minimal skills. You’re just. Going to be. That’s not interesting. It’s not challenging. It doesn’t push you. So yeah, when it’s low challenge and large low skills, you tend to be bored because we don’t feel achievement unless we are challenged. You don’t feel like you achieve something if there’s something easy to do like. I can walk down. The street you’re not like, whoa, look. At me, you know? If there’s no satisfaction in.
Brett:
It depends on. How you walk down the street, Billy? There are ways to do it. Which which could be. Like pretty much of an accomplishment.
Sage:
Could be very. Very challenging as.
Brett:
Yeah, like on. On one foot, for instance. You could be hopping down the.
Sage:
That’s not walking in anymore without topping it anyways.
Brett:
Yeah, it’s not really hoping that’s hopping. OK, OK, rewind.
Sage:
Back to the subject.
Sage:
So if the challenge is very high but you don’t have the skills. For it, so your skill level is low for that particular challenge, you’re just going to get frustrated. You’re not going to want to do it, so you can’t get it to flow. You can’t get into it. You’re just like, oh, this is you end it with anxiety is what was on the chart at the top of that vertical line when it was all the way when the skills were all the way over on the left side of the. Horizontal line and then if your skill level is. Very high, but the challenge is low. It isn’t interesting. It isn’t something like I have these skills. Like if you are a talented painter and somebody wants you to paint an apple in a realistic way you’re like. Many times have done an. Apple in school or whatever you’re like, this is not. A challenge.
Brett:
You want to do something different, something interesting.
Sage:
You want to do something different. You you want to do like dragon fruit, and then there’s some challenges because they got all those weird little pieces on them.
Brett:
An apple with a bite out of it. Now that that’s.
Sage:
I think.
Sage:
Easy to do.
Sage:
It’s a little more. Interesting but, but yeah, you want the skill level that you have to be met by a challenge that is high enough. To challenge your skill level.
Brett:
To make it interesting for you too, yeah.
Sage:
So ever you’re doing in order to get into flow. It needs to engage you, and that requires challenge and requires skills that can meet the challenge, but maybe not be.
Brett:
So not too challenging, for instance.
Sage:
Not too challenging and you don’t necessarily want to have a skill level that goes above and beyond what the challenge presents, because then it’s not challenge. And the the cool thing about that is that if you go into flow, you are from everything that I’ve read, and I can’t read anyone actually said this straight up, but if you are going into flow, you are actually increasing your skill levels incrementally, maybe small increments, but you’re going into this practice of challenging yourself, you’re going to hone your skills. And maybe just polishing them up a little bit because. You’ve been doing this. For 30 years. But it’s still pushing your skills, so flow is not just about enjoyment and productivity. It’s also about this is how you become better at what. You do.
Sage:
Let’s talk about.
Sage:
When to achieve flow? Because I want it to be. Clear that although it’d be really cool if every time you sat down at the studio table or the easel or pulled out the camera or whatever it is that you. Got into flow. You don’t need. To do it all the time and you’re not going to do it all the time. However, I think most people talk about flow in terms of like I was saying. A magical moment that only happens every once. A while and it really should happen on a more regular basis, if at all possible. So when you get into flows kind of up to you and whenever you’re creating, you can try to make that an objective. If a flow state is at all possible, you should try to get into it. It’s not always possible, though, and you can’t expect to always be in the flow state when working on your artwork. There’s too many like bits of busy work that we tend to have or business that needs to be attended to. But you want to make space for sessions. Where you can attempt. To achieve flow state and after practicing this for a while, you probably would be able to, but you do need to make the space for it like I was talking about in the last episode, making space for those things that you. Need so do. All your business stuff, for instance, in one portion of your day or just one day. In which you do it and do the busy work like sanding beads or stretching canvases, or framing your art. Do those all in one section of your day or one day that you just spend your time on that. Unless you really like doing those things, in which case maybe that you will get into a flow state, cause maybe there is enough of a challenge and enough enjoyment to make it something that. You get into flow state with, right?
Brett:
That’s true.
Sage:
But if the activities aren’t the kind of thing that benefit from and. Allow for flow. Then just don’t worry about the fact that you’re not able to get into flow state during those kinds of things. Just get it done and do what you need to get done and get on to the things that you can do and that. Benefit from a flow. State in my research about this, there actually were some suggestions that most things that you. Do could create a flow state. But I think if you have an expectation. That everything you do should result in a. Flow state you. Could get disappointed and stressed or frustrated by that kind of expectation. However, I think when you’re designing. Your work when you’re in the act of actual creation or making decisions on design and composition, the fleshing out of your idea. Is when you’re doing that, I think flow is really the optimal thing that you want to be the optimal state that you want to be in because it offers you those enhanced skills and efficiency and a satisfying use of your time. So as to when you want to be. In the flow. Ideally, when you’re in the most creative modes. Of your process. And if you can get into more. Than then that’s great because it has so. Many benefits, Brett. You really get into your work. You really get lost in your work. So and I like, you know, I admire that. I think it’s great that you do you you have such a intensity in what you do.
Brett:
Well, my professional work, the deadline has plays into that too, because when I know something is due tomorrow, I would just put everything aside and nothing in my brain is permitted in except that because the pressures on you know.
Sage:
Right.
Sage:
And that’s. And that’s an interesting thought because it’s not on my list.
Brett:
It is.
Sage:
We’re going to start talking about how to achieve flow, but having having a deadline. Actually is probably one of those ways because. You can’t let anything else distract you. You’re like, Oh my gosh, this is so important. Nothing else is more important, and it probably would help you focus for sure.
Brett:
It does help.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah.
Brett:
It does help you know absolutely.
Sage:
So we’ll add that. To the list before I even. Give you a list. Any case, let’s talk about how to achieve flow. You know, if you have the tools to achieve flow, you’ll be able to get into it, you know. Even on those days, you feel like you’re not really into it. You could probably actually do it if you can go through a few of these ideas that will give. You so first. Of all, everyone has different triggers and various activities that they enjoy doing that will get them into flow. So you’re really going? To have to determine what it is that you. Need to do and. What kind of processes you go through that will help you get? Into it so.
Brett:
You can use these.
Sage:
These guidelines as to kind of the things that you could attempt to help get. You into flow. For one, know what you’re trying to. Achieve you don’t want. A goal that’s. Like trying to achieve perfection, but you want an attainable goal for the kind of work that’s to be done with an expected output. So you could want to complete the underpainting for a new painting project. You could want to get the face. Helped it on a new figure. You could craft a half dozen sets. Of parts for your latest. Earring design and those are your goals. You don’t want to have these high expectations of yourself. You just want to have attainable, reasonable goals.
Brett:
We all want it to be great, you know they can never match the expectations of what we dream it. To be so, it just needs to be exactly.
Sage:
But set that aside. When you’re trying to.
Brett:
Yeah, you just do stuff and then it’s done, and then you can look back in a week and see.
Sage:
Get the work done now.
Brett:
Was that something? That really worked.
Sage:
And then you can go through some self critique and that kind of thing. Perfection or the ideas of what other people are doing online, and you’re trying to like, you know, do what they do or top them or whatever. Just set that stuff aside. Just set yourself some attainable.
Brett:
And then the.
Sage:
Other thing and. This is huge and difficult. You want. To know what it is.
Brett:
You really baited me with that one. I would. Like tell us, yeah.
Sage:
It is eliminating distractions and.
Brett:
Oh yeah, that speaks for me.
Sage:
The reason this is so.
Sage:
Big is because. We have so many distractions and I’m not just talking about the notifications on the phone, which are big, but honestly, our world is designed to pull. And keep our. Mention so the powers that.
Sage:
Be have the.
Sage:
Opportunity to sell us something or get us to give them money so that we can have those distractions at our back and call all the time like streaming services or certain apps on our phone games and whatnot, they’re.
Brett:
All thieves, they’re thieves of our time.
Sage:
The he’s.
Sage:
Stealing. Yeah, exactly.
Brett:
They want to sell this. Stuff and then. We want a lot of those things, that’s. The irony? Ohh wow, but more convenient.
Sage:
They make us want those things.
Brett:
They fill in the blank.
Brett:
Yeah. They make us think.
Brett:
That we need something that we.
Sage:
They make us think.
Brett:
Don’t. That’s the whole.
Sage:
Yes, exactly. And I. Yeah, there’s all these things that are trying to get us to give them money or to buy things. And on top of that, our society actually pushes the idea that we’re missing out on things. It’s also usually part of a selling process, so.
Brett:
Missing is the is. The keyword, like we’re always missing something, and they’re always looking to fill that need.
Sage:
Right.
Brett:
But come on, there’s no replacing a lot of things.
Brett:
Right. So.
Sage:
There’s no replacing getting into flow except for getting into flow.
Brett:
It’s your first day exactly. No one can sell you that.
Sage:
So yeah, we’re always told. Like, if you don’t have this gadget or you’re not part of this experience, that you’re missing out. So that, I mean, we actually have a term for it with FOMO. Fear of missing out. It’s actually like a state that moves. Everybody seems to get. Into it at one point or another.
Brett:
So really all you need is this podcast to listen. To it over and over.
Sage:
That’s right, if you.
Brett:
And over again and just send $10 million to this address. And everywhere, and we’re all good.
Sage:
This is why I have a hard time.
Sage:
Really pushing the marketing this show because I don’t want to push these things on people and it.
Brett:
Of course, and you generally want to like, inform and and create a community. I get that.
Sage:
And I feel like if somebody.
Sage:
Listens to an episode or two and goes Oh my gosh, this is speaking to me. This is saying something for me. Then they’ll you. Know, but everybody and everything is vying for your attention and that is extremely distracting. So we’ve got, you know, these things constantly going off and we’ve got this fear of missing out at the back of our mind and this stuff. And really keep us from getting. Because we seem to think we can be momentarily interrupted and that’s OK and it started out, I think with the whole multitasking thing, I don’t want, wouldn’t it started like in the 80s or whatever with this idea that we think we can do more than one? Thing at a. Time but it.
Brett:
Oh yeah, yeah.
Sage:
Is been proven that we literally can’t run two or three. Or four different things at the same. Time the studies have found that your brain will focus on one with the other, one kind of hovering in the background and then switch and then focus on the other with the other one hovering in the background.
Brett:
Month at a time, yeah.
Sage:
But your brain isn’t actually processing two different things at the same time, but what happens, and it’s kind of like driving a. Car if you are. Going down the street and then you have to turn. You have to break and then you take the turn and then you have to give it more gas to get back up to speed again. But when you’re just rolling straight down the road, the car is not using up more energy to go straight. It’s just inertia and. Need some gas? Keep going. But not nearly as much as it is to get up to speed. So once you’re up to speed, you can keep at that speed and the forward momentum makes it pretty effortless. But when your brain is switching gears all the time, like making turns all the time, like going through a maze, it’s constantly breaking and then trying to get back up to speed and then breaking and trying to get back up to speed. Which makes it very inefficient like. You can’t go through a. Maze at the same speed as going down. Straight Rd. But yeah, so studies have proven that you can’t write an e-mail and listen to. The news at the. Same time or sketch an idea and talk on the phone at the same time. You’ll just go back and forth and sometimes rather quickly, and that’s where it becomes like, more like driving through a maze. And you can. Never really get up to speed on any one task because you keep having to slow down and change direction and there’s been some studies that actually estimated that we lose up to as much as 40%. Of our work time by trying to multitask is that. Crazy 40%.
Brett:
I thought it was more like 30% but 40%.
Sage:
I thought it was like 39.
Brett:
It was 38.2%.
Sage:
Yeah, but, but.
Sage:
Our work time and the quality of our work by multitasking just goes.
Brett:
It’s gone up.
Sage:
Down to perhaps.
Brett:
Yeah, absolutely.
Sage:
And and so that’s what is going on with your brain. So multitasking.
Brett:
That makes sense, hiccups and stops.
Sage:
It becomes extremely inefficient, but for some reason we think we can so. When you have all these distractions like people like oh. I’ll just keep on my. E-mail notifications, by the way, I do not have e-mail notifications for anything because I get so many emails.
Brett:
But what if they’re really important?
Sage:
What? Wait. Guess what? I’m. Going to miss out on the. Yeah, I check my emails. Usually in the morning, sometimes at night. And then that’s it. So the only thing I have on is my text messages and my Facebook messages. But if I’m doing something important like right now, I don’t even know where my. Phone is right now.
Brett:
Yeah, that’s a good thing.
Sage:
I turn things off when I’m doing things like this. When I’m in the middle of writing, you know, things like that. There’s nothing that’s usually that is going to not just be there waiting for you when you’re done doing what you’re doing. So if you can turn off notifications, that is ideal.
Brett:
I just had a a notification turned on for this new app that I. Joined they whoever helped me specifically recognize that chime is too discord, so I was like just turn it off and we just went into the notifications. But how was I supposed to know it was from discord?
Sage:
Well, everything wants to be able to give you notices, even a website says.
Brett:
There was no way.
Sage:
Can we give you? Notices you’re like.
Sage:
No, like just come in.
Sage:
Here for a second or every app on your phone has a notices. Why would everything have to give me notices?
Brett:
Turn him. Turn him off.
Brett:
None is given.
Sage:
Because everything wants your attention these days.
Brett:
Pension is money.
Sage:
Well, attention is money, but it’s also our creativity and our time and our sanity.
Brett:
That’s the thrust of it, yeah.
Sage:
So right so in. Any case, just like turn off the notices. And just I can hear all the.
Brett:
I know, but I know you’re in a pause state. You’re not in.
Sage:
I mean.
Sage:
The pause stays.
Brett:
You’re in the prostate. You’re not. In a flow state, yes.
Sage:
That happens a lot.
Sage:
Larious so these distractions cause not only is it shifting gears and everything, but it can result in something they call attention residue, which means that if you’re shifting tasks, some of your attention is left behind on the previous task, so it’s. Floating around that task is floating around the back of. Your mind keeping you from fully focus. And if that’s the case, you can’t get into flow until your focus is fully on your task and you don’t have all these residual things. So if you want to get into flow state, if you’ve made space for a session in your studio or wherever it is that you. Do your creative. Try to eliminate anything that’s going to. Interrupt your focus. OK, so remove the distractions and we talked a lot about the phone and notifications from various things, but also distractions like tell people in your household, you know, I’m going to be working when. My door is. I am working or you know from this time to this time I am working.
Brett:
So you have to have boundaries and and have that time respected because it’s not just.
Sage:
Right. Right.
Brett:
Like all you’re. Doing really, really like I can interrupt you anytime. It’s like, no, it’s the state of mind that it has a lot of value.
Sage:
Yeah, it’s important to you and you make the people in your. Household or the people that call you all?
Sage:
The time or whatnot.
Brett:
Respect it, and if they don’t respect it, kick him out. That’s that’s what. I say I missed it.
Sage:
I’m done with you. No, but no, no.
Brett:
I’m serious actually, yeah.
Sage:
But you have a discussion with people in the House or whoever it is that might interrupt you or.
Brett:
I’m going to get into flow.
Brett:
Seeing everybody, so leave me alone.
Sage:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Boundaries boundaries is the thing that we’re after with this. Kind of thing.
Brett:
And when you want to please people and provide for people, that’s a hard thing to say no to it is it is.
Sage:
Take care of them. Is it is but respect yourself. And again, the last episode, making space for yourself, making. Space to take care of the things that you need to take care of is very important and if you do that and you discuss that with the people that are in your household or whoever might interrupt you, then you’re not going to worry. Someone’s going to need you because there’s an understanding so you can get into flow state because you don’t have to worry about all those other things outside your studio door. So we spent a lot of time on distractions, but it is very important to get rid of this. Distractions and anything that will interrupt you. OK. So then to achieve flow state like we keep talking about having a challenge, you want to consider your element of. Challenge Chick sent me, nice says flow also happens when a person’s skills are fully involved in overcoming a challenge that is just about manageable. So it acts as a magnet for learning new skills and increasing challenges. And if the challenges are too low, one gets back to flow by increasing them. If challenges are too great. One can return to flow state by learning new skills. OK. So then you want to mediate your challenges, you want to judge them so like like he was? Just saying if. You’re doing something and you’re getting frustrated. Challenge is probably too great. And if you’re bored, you probably need to throw in a little bit more. You know, judge, if you’re being challenged but not overly. That’s right. Then another thing you can do is choose a pursuit that. You enjoy, which seems like really like duh.
Brett:
Obvious, yeah.
Sage:
But if you say I want to get into flow state by sanding beads now in the polymer clay worlds, most people hate sanding beads, so there’s a good chance you’re not going to get into flow state by sanding. Your beads, unless you add something to it. So that’s maybe not the most creative part of your process. So you might not think, oh, I want to be in flow state while I’m saying to be, although you can and I used to do that by putting on an audio book or, you know, a podcast maybe or something that engages your mind your.
Brett:
Sort of a mindless task and when? You and you have that kind of thing.
Sage:
It’s a mindless task.
Brett:
They can really relax you in a way too, and that’s like guessing out, yeah.
Sage:
It can. It can be very relaxing. And then you can add something to it to really get you into it by making the whole experience interesting, which is where audio books or podcasts or something that engages you can actually come into play.
Brett:
Good music, yeah.
Sage:
Well, music isn’t necessarily going to challenge you unless you’re a musician. You’re trying to figure out how they. Did that court or whatever, but you want?
Brett:
Oh, I see. Mentally you’re talking it.
Sage:
Like we ended up having this long discussion after the videos that we were watching about. Whether you can get into flow state watching TV shows because he mentioned something about 7 to 8% of the time that you watch TV or movies that you get into flow during parts of things and like, well, what does that look like? And then we start talking about the different shows that you get into that when it’s over, you’re like blinking like.
Brett:
Yeah, like what had what just happened?
Sage:
You’re coming back into the real world.
Brett:
You lose yourself.
Sage:
Yeah, but it puts into question like why is that flow?
Brett:
In a good show.
Sage:
Well, it’s got to challenge you and it’s got to be a skill set. So you’re not doing something, but you’re watching the show. So how’s it getting to flow? Where does the challenge and the skill come in? Well, it comes in because when you’re watching something for which you are getting questions. It’s like you know who killed so and so or why is that person doing what they’re doing or what are they going to do next or how are they gonna get so and so to fall in love with them? And we’re questioning and we’re trying to figure things out. So we actually are challenged by the things that are presented to us and. We are engaged by our. Skill level of can I figure those things out? You are challenged. By what’s in the show and your and your skill level is what kind of thing that you like to be challenged by mentally, so you can’t actually get into flow by watching a show, even though it’s a bit more passive, but it has to get to that point where your mind is actually engaged in deduction and problem solve. So I just kind of interesting side thing, but we were talking about choosing something that you enjoy. So we enjoy shows we enjoy. Movies and we enjoy our artwork. I enjoy weeding for some reason. You may enjoy like. Cleaning and whatnot, and you can get into flow state through those things. As well and then. Kind of like the last thing that you can do to help you get into flow. Is actually a matter of practice before the times that you’re. Actually in those. So you can actually do a number of things that can help you get into that mindset into things like doing nothing. I bring up. Episode 20. A lot, which is the necessity of doing nothing, but it’s really important if you haven’t listened to it. I really encourage you to do so, but doing nothing can help you get into a flow state more readily because it gets your. Being more accustomed. To the state. Of internal stimulus versus external stimulus. So when you’re doing nothing. Like when you’re in. The shower we talk about this in that episode. You can really brainstorm. You know how to shower. You know how to. Wash your hair and stuff so your brain does have anything. Else to do. So it goes wandering off and does its own. Thing and during those. Kinds of internal I think they called dissociated state. Your brain can actually access your unconsciousness and use the information. It’s not exactly flow, but it is similar in that you are looking internally for your motivation and for the information that you need versus you’re on your phone looking. At TikTok. Or on the computer or on your, you know, TV. Watching Netflix.
Brett:
You first sort of put yourself in.
Brett:
A receptive mode.
Sage:
Receptive internally, it’s also related to meditating or practicing mindfulness, which is just something else that you can do if that’s something that you’re comfortable with and that works for you. I’ve seen that recommended a number of times. That you want to practice mindfulness because it puts you in a present state which is very much what flow does in the 1st place and meditation of course, which quiets your mind and should push worries in day-to-day thoughts aside. So these types of practices can attune your brain to a similar type of altered consciousness.
Sage:
And then just.
Sage:
Doing Zen things that aren’t art so. Essentially trying to get into flow state and other things that aren’t necessarily necessarily your artistic endeavors. So like like I. Said I love weeding. And I can get into a flow state. With that. Or some people like to clean or hike or do yoga. And these things can get. Your brain into the habit of kind of zoning out instead of being in the zone, your zoning out. Was kind of related, right?
Brett:
It is.
Sage:
But it’s without the pressures that. You might put on yourself when. You’re creating artwork like you tend to be like. I want to make great peace or I need to make 100 pieces before the show next week. But if you. Do more of those kinds of things spend time doing nothing? Meditate, practice mindfulness, or work on getting into the zone. Other areas when you get into your creative work and you want your session to allow you to get into flow, you’ve been doing this in other areas and it’s a lot easier for you to fall into it simply because. You basically practice it. OK, So what if? Regardless of me telling you these things that you can. Do you still have a hard time? Getting in. Flow well, becoming familiar with what flow state is and how to achieve it. First of all, that will help you realize when you’re not being challenged when you’re not in flow. When you’re overly distracted or when you’re being frustrated, we say things like we just can’t get into that today or we feel helpless to do anything about. The state of not being in flow even when we want. To but recognize. That you’re not in. A flow state and know how to assess the situation. I think it comes down to four questions you can ask yourself. Am I bored? In which case you know you need to challenge. Yourself more or. Is this frustratingly too difficult, or am I distracted by outside stimuli? Or am I distracted by internal thoughts and emotions? So once you’ve identified what it is that’s getting the way, you can hopefully address the issue. So if the work is. Boring. Take it up a. Notch try a new technique or a new subject, or a new form, or a new approach. If it’s boring, but it has to be done like we’re. Talking about the. Sanding of the beads you can engage your mind in another way by like I said, listening podcasts or audio books until you can get back to those more engrossing creative aspects of your. Process if. The work is frustrating and you don’t want to do it. If it’s too hard. And that’s not letting you get into the zone. Take things down a notch. Maybe you’re not ready to do those particular things that you’re trying to do, or maybe you need to ask for help. So kind of like ask yourself if you.
Sage:
Need to be.
Sage:
Doing this frustrating aspect. Of your work, is there a simpler? Approach to it.
Brett:
Or can you enlist?
Sage:
Someone else to do the more difficult parts if it’s something that’s not absolutely unnecessary. Part of your creative process. So and then if you’re distracted by outside stimulus, we talked about this, turn off your phone, turn off your computer. close the door. Asked not to be disturbed, you can put on headphones and I would say supportive music. So music that has the same kind of energy that you need. So if. You want it to. Be like calm and relaxing. Put on calm and relaxing music. If you need the energy because the type of work or the painting or the sculpting or whatever you’re doing feels very energetic. But yeah, headphones can be helpful as a way to get rid of outside stimuli. If it’s internal thoughts and emotions, you know a lot of times we have things going on in our life that we just can’t stop thinking about and that will keep you from getting into flow. So if there’s anything that you can do in that moment to resolve those feelings or set aside those internal thoughts, consider what it is you can do. Like can you take care of whatever is worrying you now? By completing this dreaded task that you keep thinking, oh, I’ve I’ve got. To I don’t know.
Brett:
Want to have more abstract things going on? Just write. I’ll just write it all down. Something’s on my mind. It’s a good way to to get it out. Of your system.
Sage:
Yeah, there’s something that’s bothering you that you can’t take care of because like the other person that would have to be part of the conversation isn’t available or it’s something you simply can’t address right now. You can write things down. You can call somebody and talk things through. To try to like lessen your worry or. We just need to be able to see the solar. Ocean to not think about it. I was like, oh, if I do XY and Z, then I’ll probably get this taken care of. And then we can set it aside and get more focused on the work, that kind of thing.
Brett:
That’s great, yeah.
Sage:
But yeah, do whatever you can. If if it is another person, you can talk to them, talk to them because it’s going to get in the way of you getting into a flow state. If that’s what you really want to be doing. So if you can’t. Find an alternative or resolution for what’s keeping you from getting into flow. You can do something else for the time being, maybe. Something until you can fully focus. Mind you, sometimes the answer is actually to just keep working at what you’re doing and you may find you just need to get into the work and the distractions of things. That are, you know. Taking up your mind, space may actually end up getting pushed into the background, so I would say give yourself like that 15 or 20 minutes. At the task to see if it will resolve itself. Just don’t give up too soon and again. If you can’t do it all the time, even when you want to, it’s OK.
Brett:
The more.
Sage:
You do work on getting into flow. The easier it’s going to be. To do it when you want to and again, the more often you can the better. But don’t put a lot of pressure on yourself because that in itself could actually. Be distracting, right? So that’s.
Brett:
Makes sense. Yeah, that’s a good one.
Sage:
Pretty much what I want to talk. About in terms of. Hopefully that made sense and that you can think back about your own experiences in terms of getting lost. In your work and just think about how wonderful that felt. And wouldn’t it be great if you could just make that happen anytime that you want and you can just keep those things in mind. I will make. A short checklist and put that in the next newsletter. So if you want to get a checklist of the things that we just talked about, make sure you’re signed up for the newsletter. This comes out a little short little thing that comes out on Sunday mornings. That’s it. I don’t use that mailing list for anything else. I absolutely promise. So you can sign up for that on the sagearts.com. On the front page, you know there’s a news and notice this button. You can also send me comments and stories about your own ways of getting into flow, maybe some things that you do could be helpful for some of the other.
Brett:
Listeners. That’s always interesting to hear other people’s perspective and how it goes, yeah.
Sage:
Right. I love hearing other people. ‘S stories, please send them to me. You can do that by going to the sagearts.com and going to the contact page. You can also write me through social media on Instagram and Facebook on the Sage Arts Podcast page. And then if you would do me a favor, if you’re listening on a podcast player, go ahead and hit the follow button or the plus sign or whatever it is on the player. The more people that are following puts the podcast up on the search list, which means we could have more people in on this conversation. And I think growing that community could be important for all of us. So that would be wonderful if you appreciate what I’m doing and you want to give back, you can donate through. Buy me a coffee. Or the PayPal donation button. I have those on the homepage as a sagearts.com about halfway down you’ll Scroll down and see those and you can find all of these links. Anything that I ever talk about, any kind of link item or reference that I make should be available in the show notes or the description or whatever it is it’s called in your podcast players. In any case, Brett, do you? Have any last? Words on flow or being distracted or interrupting people.
Sage:
I mean, I mean.
Sage:
I mean the way I did all this afternoon.
Sage:
No, I asked you to. That was my fault.
Brett:
Yeah, that’s I was like, alright.
Sage:
I mean, that was my intention.
Brett:
No, I learned a lot actually sort of putting those thoughts and those ideas together in that list was really helpful to me, you know?
Sage:
I mean, it’s probably a subject matter that was.
Sage:
Extremely familiar to you in terms of just knowing what flow is, cause you get into it. All the time. But is it interesting to actually be able to like kind of break it down and understand it better?
Brett:
I didn’t know, people said, didn’t.
Sage:
Because once you understand it better, you have more control over it. Like I said you we have good days. We have bad days, but you can have a lot more. Good days if you actually know what’s going on. And you can make an assessment.
Brett:
It’s making the the the unconscious conscious, you know, and that’s that’s what I.
Sage:
Right, right.
Brett:
Sort of experienced here.
Sage:
And then there’s something you can do about it, because you are aware that this is the thing that you have. Some control over.
Brett:
So what I’m having fits of anxiety when I’m, you know, reaching over my skill set. Now I’ll know exactly what to do.
Sage:
And be like, hey, yeah, I’m not gonna get to flow like this. So back it up.
Brett:
I was gonna paint the Sistine Chapel like Michelangelo, but I decided. Wait, maybe I need.
Sage:
You’re going to do that in.
Brett:
More skills for that?
Sage:
Our ceiling, I don’t know.
Brett:
Yeah. And our ceiling.
Sage:
I think you should still do that.
Brett:
Had a whole picture, yeah. I don’t think you’d want me. To do that, well, I do.
Sage:
Ohh, maybe it probably look like like cartoon versions.
Brett:
A certain kind of version of it. Yeah, it would be a. Little from the cartoon side, I guess.
Sage:
Well, in any case, Brett, thank you for coming.
Brett:
Thanks for having me. This is fun, Ember.
Sage:
Thanks for quietly sleeping there and all of you out there. See what you can do about getting into that flow. I hope you really enjoy it and feed that music because it will help you when you’re in your flow state, because we all kinds of things to feed it and be true to your weirdness and join us again next time on. The Sage Arts podcast.
